Real WWII B-17 bombing mission report and a game within the game

[oboe]

You can fairly file in the following in the "Too much time on my hands" file, but while I was doing research for B-17 skins I ran across a copy of a real WWII B-17 bombing mission report from a mission to St Lo in July '44 by the 306th BG (these pages are just excerpts - the real report is much longer, including reports from each crew in the mission):

   

   

Reading through this report, I got an idea for a more historically-minded way to run bombing missions in AH.  I adopted the format and made a template for bombing missions the in MA:


I had already created a deck of trading-style aircraft cards using DIY business card print stock (Avery #8871, 10 business cards to an 81/2" x 11" precut card sheet) and the images from the Aces High Skins Page:
 


So what I have been doing for the past month or so, whenever I feel like bombing, is to shuffle the card deck and randomly pick a skin and use it to fly a semi-realistic bombing mission in the MA (no suicide missions; a target is selected to help the Knight's war effort- either tactical bombing of airfields and towns to aid a base capture attempt or a bombing run to a strat target.  I keep track of the route and fill out a bombing mission details on the Mission Report form as I fly, and finish completing the report after I land.   (I really need to get some whiskey too, to enjoy a shot during the post-mission debrief).

After 15 missions completed, here are the stats I compiled on the performance of my version of a small "8th Air Force":


As you can see, I'm not an accomplished bomber pilot.  Some missions involved white-knuckled duals with enemy fighters, others I've been jumped by enemy fighters while in the bombsight, and I lose planes before I can get to a gun to defend my formation.  It is tough to keep track of everything going on in the hectic MA while trying to watch for fighters, calibrate the bomb sight, pilot the aircraft and jot down notes for the report! 

I'd like to collect more data though, because I'm interested to see if a "charmed" skin emerges that seems to be clearly more survivable than you'd expect, or if an outfit emerges as a "hard luck" unit that always seems to come home shot up (if they make it back at all).

So far, the 100th BG has the highest loss rate at 56%.   The 96th BG has the highest score after 3 missions (8523) but sustained a loss rate of 44%.   The 486th has had only one outing, but all aircraft returned and bombing was accurate for a decent score of 5288.

If anybody has helpful info as far as what bomb load to select for different targets, I'd appreciate it.  I generally use 12x500lb HE, but have also experimented with 6x1000lbs loadout.


 

 

[decoy]

Oboe,

Very interesting read, but WOW, you really do have too much time on you hands.

My Uncle Leo flew B24s in WWII, late in the war, and he said that, by the time they got to England, the 8th Air Force was officially discouraging nose are on bombers because the crews would get extremely superstitious about flying an a/c that was 'jinxed.'

He also said that the 'experts' (no idea of his frame of reference) got to looking at a/c that returned from missions with 'skin punctures,' either from mgs or from ack and 'they' wanted to beef up those areas with extra 'armor.' (again, no idea of his frame of reference) But other 'experts' pointed out that if an a/c survived the hits these a/c  had taken, there was no need to add armor there, but in the places they hadn't been hit, because the a/c hit in those spots were the ones that were not coming back.

He never told me what was ever done about that.

[oboe]

Oboe,

Very interesting read, but WOW, you really do have too much time on you hands.

My Uncle Leo flew B24s in WWII, late in the war, and he said that, by the time they got to England, the 8th Air Force was officially discouraging nose are on bombers because the crews would get extremely superstitious about flying an a/c that was 'jinxed.'

He also said that the 'experts' (no idea of his frame of reference) got to looking at a/c that returned from missions with 'skin punctures,' either from mgs or from ack and 'they' wanted to beef up those areas with extra 'armor.' (again, no idea of his frame of reference) But other 'experts' pointed out that if an a/c survived the hits these a/c  had taken, there was no need to add armor there, but in the places they hadn't been hit, because the a/c hit in those spots were the ones that were not coming back.

He never told me what was ever done about that.

I've heard about a study like that.  Looking at damage patterns and then realizing that wherever areas of the aircraft were underrepresented - those are the vulnerable areas because if the aircraft was hit there, it didn't come back.

B-17s were legendary for their ability to absorb punishment.  Here's one that took a flak hit in the bombbay - I think it must not have exploded and passed right through the aircraft and out through the fuselage.



Might childhood best friend's father was a navigator on B-17s with the 384th BG.  I was talking to him a few years ago and he dug out his old papers and showed me.  One was a yearbook like publication about the life and times of the 384th at Grafton Underwood, personnel photos, etc.   The most interesting thing were the flight reports he filled out during the flight - I remember seeing a sub-zero temperature recorded in hand-written pencil and that more than anything made his experiences more real and immediate for me.     


   

[Devil 505]

That's awesome, Oboe.

Reminds me of an FSO about 10 years ago set in the Philippines  - one of the few where KN flew for the Allies.

We were assigned B-25's and I was researching our skins to see if any were historically accurate for the event. I found a website for a bomb group that had a few mission reports including one where they operated out of the airfield that we were going to take off from in the FSO, and their target for this mission was the same Japanese air base we were assigned to attack. We ran a low level attack profile, attacking from the east, just like they did. The immersion was awesome!

[oboe]

That's awesome, Oboe.

Reminds me of an FSO about 10 years ago set in the Philippines  - one of the few where KN flew for the Allies.

We were assigned B-25's and I was researching our skins to see if any were historically accurate for the event. I found a website for a bomb group that had a few mission reports including one where they operated out of the airfield that we were going to take off from in the FSO, and their target for this mission was the same Japanese air base we were assigned to attack. We ran a low level attack profile, attacking from the east, just like they did. The immersion was awesome!

Great stuff, Devil!   I think I should try FSO sometime

[decoy]

Uncle Leo didn't talk about his war service much, but when I was 14 or 15, I asked if he really flew bombers.  We had a very intense conversation.  He said two things that stuck in my mind, one was "It was the only desk job I ever had.'  The other was a recount of a bomber in their formation that took a direct ack hit in the bomb bay and sympathetic detonation called the bomb load to explode.  He said the whole aircraft vaporized. 

He was shot down on his 8th mission.  He few with the 445th Bombardment Group and Jimmy Stewart, the actor, was his commanding officer.  He said that a lot of 'Hollywood' actors that wrangled commissions in the Army Air Corp cherry picked their missions.  Jimmy Stewart, who had a private certificate prior to volunteering, flew every mission his squadron flew.  I've mentioned this in other threads, but I've always been impressed with Uncle Leo's service.

He spent three months in a Luftstalag and was afraid they were going to be transported east, to Poland, but the end of the war came and they never did.  In a strange coincidence, of of the guards from the stalag visited the States in the sixties and looked up Uncle Leo and several other people who had been prisoner in that stalag.  Uncle Leo was the most serene person I ever met.  I once asked him if he ever got nervous and he said, "I haven't been nervous since I got shot down."

For what it's worth.

[oboe]

Its worth a lot!  Especially now as we can no longer hear their stories firsthand.  What a thing to witness, a bomber in your formation blowing up.   My friend's father passed away from dementia a number of years ago. 

I've been inside a B-24 and a B-17, courtesy of the Collings Foundation, I believe, who brought warbirds to our local airport almost annually.   I found the B-17 was easier to move around inside, but the B-24 is an impressive aircraft up close.   

[mERv]

I will see about doing this next week and share my reports. Will need to tweak it a little to fit my play style but will do my best to be accurate.

[oboe]

Would be cool, Finetime.  I'll add your data in.  Thanks!

It's another thing that reminds me of the size of the 8th AF's effort.  I usually think about the bomber crews and grounds crews, but they must've had a large administrative/intelligence divisions too - for target selection and briefing, for interviewing/debriefing the crews after missions, for compiling and summarizing the data and sending it up the chain of decision makers.   

I lost a whole group last night, attacking A12.  The 486th BG, led by "American Beauty" suffered 100% loss.   We had fought off the initial wave of attacking fighters (P-38, Yak) and made a couple passes over the field, targeting the Ordnance bunkers, losing one bomber in the process.  I think we tried one pass too many though - an Me262 made quick work of the remaining 2 bombers.

First time I had tried a 16x250lb load out.  A 3 bomb salvo seemed plenty for each bunker but I tried too many passes - shoulda left the area after my second pass...

[Nefarious]

Cool stuff Oboe.

We could do something like this in the SEA with massive formations, into realistic targets in Germany.

I kind of switched up the format of our Fortress events, but I'd be happy to host the original format for those who want participate like this.

[mERv]

Would be cool, Finetime.  I'll add your data in.  Thanks!

It's another thing that reminds me of the size of the 8th AF's effort.  I usually think about the bomber crews and grounds crews, but they must've had a large administrative/intelligence divisions too - for target selection and briefing, for interviewing/debriefing the crews after missions, for compiling and summarizing the data and sending it up the chain of decision makers.   

I lost a whole group last night, attacking A12.  The 486th BG, led by "American Beauty" suffered 100% loss.   We had fought off the initial wave of attacking fighters (P-38, Yak) and made a couple passes over the field, targeting the Ordnance bunkers, losing one bomber in the process.  I think we tried one pass too many though - an Me262 made quick work of the remaining 2 bombers.

First time I had tried a 16x250lb load out.  A 3 bomb salvo seemed plenty for each bunker but I tried too many passes - shoulda left the area after my second pass...

I stay away from the small bombs at all cost. Splash damage is life or death most of the time!

[Trev95]

Oboe, you have outdone me.

This man has taken bombing missions and strat runs to an entirely different level.

<S>FBTrev95/Riftval

[oboe]

Oboe, you have outdone me.

This man has taken bombing missions and strat runs to an entirely different level.

<S>FBTrev95/Riftval

LOL, a long time ago, I owned a copy of this Avalon Hill solitary game, called "B-17 Queen of the Skies".   The goal was to complete a tour of duty in a bombing campaign taking place in 1943-44 over NW Europe.   Lots of tables and dice rolls, from mission selection to flak and enemy fighter attacks, location of damage and severity.  I don't think I played it more than a dozen times, but I do remember reading an article about a young man who had actually done 25+ missions and written mission reports.  He even named all the members of his crew, IIRC.  Might've been from article in Avalon Hill's old gaming magazine, the "General", not sure.



Guess its just my past catching up with me?   I'll try to get one of these bombers through 25 missions.  That means I can't have a 100% loss rate on any mission - as long as 1 makes it back, that Group is still in the running for the 25 mission goal.  I think there are 2-3 BGs already out of the running - I'll have to check. 

[9128adam]

What would be really cool,is if the europe map was used more, it gives more meaning to playing imo, but this is an opnion,from a far ofc!

Cool stuff Oboe.

We could do something like this in the SEA with massive formations, into realistic targets in Germany.

I kind of switched up the format of our Fortress events, but I'd be happy to host the original format for those who want participate like this.

[Nefarious]

What would be really cool,is if the europe map was used more, it gives more meaning to playing imo, but this is an opnion,from a far ofc!

Well, it's only used in the Special Events Arena. If you're new to the game, you should check out our special events!