Cloud icon issue.

[captain1ma]

i would like to have a 100 players to help check a terrain, to see if the cloud file works. please respond as a volunteer. We'll get started as soon as we hit 100!
 thanks -- Jaeger1

[Devil 505]

Devil505,

Ok, your timing is what it is and I'm not saying it's off but if that was the case, why didn't you just re-log?

It was my call, if your looking for someone to blame, me. No problem, i did already apologize and being that we can not go back in time what would make you satisfied?

Couple things to factor in your time line.
      * As CM if you fly too, there is a lot of multitasking going on your information can have some lag as your trying to get things set up
      * Like i mentioned, i thought is was fixed at roughly the +30 point
      * It was not an across the board loss, how am i to know how many have lost icons? Do a restart for very few pilots, and once again, why not just re-log?

Some others have commented that if there would have been a re-start they most likely would have called it a night. I can tell you as a player i would have also called it a night. As CM, i would have stuck around, i would not have liked it, as it makes for a long day, 2AM or so finish.

You are welcome to join me for arena set-up on Wednesday, being we are going to check cloud files going forward, i will need at least one extra person in the arena to confirm icons are not lost.

If you think there is a problem, be part of the solution

 
Jeffn

First off, Thanks to the alert from JG 54, I was able to keep my squad out of the clouds. So we were able to maintain working icons for ourselves. No need for anyone in KN to relog.

I'm not looking for anyone to blame so much as I am expressing my frustration at the entire CM team for not doing enough to prevent this problem from happening after it previously occurred. It ruined multiple FSO frames and a Fortress Europe the first time this issue was encountered.

Yes, it was discovered that the cause was a bad cloud file and from I was told by Spikes, the offending file is on a list of other known bad cloud files all CM's have access to. It's a great idea to have such a list, but that should not have been the only measure. The list does not account for the possibility of a known bad file being used by mistake, a new cloud file being bugged, or a known good cloud file becoming corrupted.

This is not the failure of a singular person, but the entire team failing to have the foresight to expect the problem to recur. I'm of the opinion that there should have been concerted effort to completely diagnose the problem and it's effects with the intent of having a plan of action in place should it occur again. This thread makes it very clear that nobody is sure how to fix the icon problem at the user level, only that changing the cloud file stops new instances of icon loss. I'd rather help properly diagnose the the complete problem than to just ensure that things are fine for the next two weeks.

To me, the problem is not that there is a glitch, it's that this glitch affects players to varying degrees. If the glitch affected everybody the same way, then fine, keep going and we'll adapt. But this glitch causes some players to have advantages that others don't have. That is why I'm in favor of completely resetting a frame after the problem is fixed. If players can't understand that a reset is being made in the name of fair gameplay then they are jerks for leaving. God forbid they suffer a small inconvenience for the sake of the greater good.

[whiteman]

Had a squadmate re-log twice, once just closing AH then complete shutdown reboot and when he got back in he still had no icons. Seems like the arena would need to be reset.

[Dantoo]

I hope all is calm now.

Might I enter a plea here?  There should not be a case where some have icons and some don't.

If this occurs again and it can't be fixed on the fly, turn the icons off for all please. 

The advantage of icons is massive.  Situational awareness goes straight to zero for the non-icon people.
How much does the SA drop?  To the point, that in a dogfight, those without don't know if there is friend or foe in front or behind.  Just because they are firing means little.
There was quite a bit of blue on blue firing that I witnessed personally.  (Watching DamPhy being chased around in his own ack by a pair of Spits left me head-shaking). 

[Spikes]

Had a squadmate re-log twice, once just closing AH then complete shutdown reboot and when he got back in he still had no icons. Seems like the arena would need to be reset.

Was he one who flew through the cloud and lost them? The bug affects people who flew through them. For example, I didn't and during the frame could see about half the people with icons. So the person with the bug is the person who needs to relog.

I changed the file ASAP in hopes that JG54 may be the only one with it, but that was not the case.

But this glitch causes some players to have advantages that others don't have. That is why I'm in favor of completely resetting a frame after the problem is fixed. If players can't understand that a reset is being made in the name of fair gameplay then they are jerks for leaving. God forbid they suffer a small inconvenience for the sake of the greater good.

Actually, I'd say the bug is as 'fair' as a bug can get considering the affected player has no icons to see and he himself does not have an icon. So in certain circumstances you actually have the advantage because he can't see you either. Not ideal, but there have been worse issues in the past.

Case in point we were behind a group of P-40s for 2-3 minutes at least without being seen. Unfortunately the C.202 is incredibly slow and we couldn't catch them. 

Doing a re-launch or even a reset would take entirely too long and puts too much stress on everyone (mainly setup) to get back up on a reasonable amount of time. It would not be a 5 minute thing. Everyone has to be grounded, likely have to reboot the arena in the event that people without icons try to use it to their advantage. So that's probably 15-20 minutes at least to get the arena reset and get settings back into place. Possibly longer. That is an incredible amount of stress for the Arena setup who typically sets the arena days before gameday. When the arena is good to go now you're 30+ minutes in (being very conservative here) and are trying to get guys filed back in so you give a 5-10 minute launch timer. On top of the fact that you launch at 5 after and were t+10 or so, the start time is now an hour after original FSO launch.

That is why we do not entertain a reset. Obviously the solution is to not let it happen, but we are humans, make mistakes, and have apologized.

Might I enter a plea here?  There should not be a case where some have icons and some don't.

If this occurs again and it can't be fixed on the fly, turn the icons off for all please. 

Now this sounds fun. 

[whiteman]

Was he one who flew through the cloud and lost them? The bug affects people who flew through them. For example, I didn't and during the frame could see about half the people with icons. So the person with the bug is the person who needs to relog.

The entire squad went through the clouds, so when he came back he may have had everyone else with the bug in range as well.

[Rocco]

I don't know if logging then getting back into your aircraft in flight would fix the bug, given that the bug is attached to the cloud status of your aircraft. I didn't test it though. Grabbing a new plane without logging worked for me, I did this with second hour planes and icons were showing for me again.

[Vulcan]

I'd love to try an FSO frame one day with no icons (maybe on a non-FSO scheduled Friday). Something early war would be fun like early spits vs 109s or that russian setup with the I-16s.

[Spikes]

I'd love to try an FSO frame one day with no icons (maybe on a non-FSO scheduled Friday). Something early war would be fun like early spits vs 109s or that russian setup with the I-16s.

No no...Operation Marita with 109E-4s for both sides, no icons! 

[SIK1]

No no...Operation Marita with 109E-4s for both sides, no icons! 

 

 
Sik

[Dantoo]

"Actually, I'd say the bug is as 'fair' as a bug can get considering the affected player has no icons to see and he himself does not have an icon."

But........If one whole squad can't see icons (friend and foe) and the opposing squad can see all icons (they know who their friends are) - then the advantage is massive.  "Squad" Ops remember.
 
Good point that I seriously missed has been raised here.  Of course, you can re-log whilst in the air these days.  Dangit.  But here lies the path to solution for the future.
If the file can be replaced on the fly and all everybody has to do is log out and in again then don't we have a bandaid we can use?

Should be fairly easy to implement. 

Action for the unknown, in the uncertain future of icons in space:

The moment a squad reports the problem, (it will always be fairly early)
CM acts to swap cloud file.
Non-affected squads need do nothing.
Affected squads set straight and level (pointed toward safety), then on getting the "Go" from the CM, just do a fast re-log.
Everybody is sweet!

Right?

[Spikes]

I suppose we'd have to test whether or not that type of re-log would work. I also don't have a whole lot of faith in the 5 minute AI thing. I've heard people have gotten back in in the past but also people where it puts them in the tower even though they were well within 5 minutes.

[Dantoo]

At worst, if they haven't been in a fight at least, let them re-up.

I'm suggesting it as a solution for what is most likely going to occur in the first 15 minutes of a frame anyway.

It's a solution that I hope we shouldn't ever need.  It is a quick repair if that unfortunate situation occurs again.

[Rocco]

Are the cloud files publicly available? No worries if not, I just thought some of the guys on here might be willing to test them out. I also wouldn't mind having them to troubleshoot some unrelated performance issues.

[Vulcan]

No no...Operation Marita with 109E-4s for both sides, no icons! 

Hell yeah! Then there'd be no squeakin over who had the better ride, icons, or clouds!