Saving FSO

[AKKuya]

There has been so much discussion on this forum BB about what should be done and what could be done.  All opinions have value from a player's point of view.  There is no right way and no wrong way.  Always, only through be open minded and taking chances even with small steps will progress or failure happen.

The last few years have shown that numbers of players can swing up and down.  Time of the year (summer = low numbers) (winter = high numbers) plays a factor.  Type of setup where one side may have undesirable planes in mindset of players using MA as a basis of comparison (hangar queens).  Real life steps in and can cause some havoc.

Until a major event happens (viral campaign that brings in a boatload of players), the current situation possibly be a dwindling scenario.  20 years of this game has left the true die-hards and occasional returning players. 

The only viable solution might be the pre-programmed AI planes.  Hangar Queens.  If for argument's sake that FSO players want to fly the best available aircraft, then designing the events will require more robust list of opposing plane sets.  Is this catering to the players?  No, this is just adapting to creating more enhanced play.

The days of 600 players in FSO are gone and with the 4 Objectives to defend and attack.  Those were fun days creating the CIC Orders when I was up to bat. 

Today, it is usually one Objective to defend and attack.  Current CICs have an easier time in creating the Orders.  Adding the AI element will put some new energy into the mix.  This opens the door to a new type of behind-the-scenes player.

Side AI Designer.  Official title to be named at a later date.  This position needs to have multiple players learning the craft of AI design.  Allied AI and Axis AI.  One AI designer is picked for one FSO event per side.  Each Side AI will collaborate with the weekly CIC.  The CIC to design the Orders for the squads and the AI to create the AI groups. 

Using a simplistic setup, I have created one for Europe and one for Pacific.  These are just for illustration purposes.  The CM designers know how to create the setups that are workable and playable.

8th Air Force vs Luftwaffe 1945


Allied Objectives: Green Triangles
Attack A113
Attack Ammo factory

Allied Order of battle:
B-17, B-24, B-26, Bostons, Lancasters
P-38, P-40, P-47, P-51, Hurricane, Spitfire, Typhoon

Axis Objectives: Green Triangles
Defend A113
Defend Ammo factory

Axis Order of battle:
Bf-109, Bf-110, C.205m Fw-190, Me-262, Ta-152

Allied Command:
Strike Group 1
B-17, P-51D, P-47M

Strike Group 2
B-26, P-38, p-40, Spitfire

Decoy Group 1
Lancasters, P-38, P-40, Spitfire

Decoy Group 2
B-24, P-51D, Typhoons

Axis Command
Squad Defense
High performance Bf-109, Fw-190, Me-262, Ta-152 or
Low performance Bf-109m Fw-190 plus Bf-110, C.205

AI Defense 1
Low performance Bf-109m Fw-190 plus Bf-110, C.205

AI Defense 2
High performance Bf-109, Fw-190, Me-262, Ta-152 or
Low performance Bf-109m Fw-190 plus Bf-110, C.205

AI is very versatile in the planning of the Orders.  The CIC and AI designer can create AI Groups at different altitudes, directions, defensive intensity, and speed.  FSO players will not know when contacting an enemy force to be player or AI.  New tactics and fast decision making will ensue. 

Pacific Theater 1945
Terrain Luzon


Allied Objectives:
Blue Triangle and Square
Attack A32
Attack CV Group in sector 8,8
Red Triangle and Square
Defend A20
Defend Cv Group in sector 5,6

Axis Objectives:
Blue Triangle and Square
Defend A32
Defend CV Group in sector 8,8
Red triangle and Square
Attack A20
Attack Cv Group in sector 5,6

Allied Order of battle:
B-25, B-26, Bostons, F4F, F4U, FM2, P-38, p-39, P-40, P-47, P-51, Hurricane, Spitfire, SBD, TBM

Axis Order of battle:
A6M, B5N2, D3A1, G4m1, Ki-43, Ki-61, Ki-67, Ki-84, N1K2

This I will leave to your imagination.  Those who can picture a battle plan.  Feel free to post how you would set up a side with both player CIC Orders and AI programming.  Use specific aircraft variants and defensive patrol routes.

FSO is always will be a registered Squad event with players.  Player designed, controlled and played.  AI programming will not change that.  It's a player that designs and controls the AI mission.

This is just my opinion.  You can agree or disagree.  You can say this will never work to save FSO.  If you say that, then I ask you.  What's your idea?

I'm taking a break from the game for at least 6 months to a year.

 

[Devil 505]

Let's start with something simple, like not using Brewsters outside of Finland.

[guncrasher]

perhaps allow more than 1 life. maybe 2 or 3.  some scenarios have unlimited lives, maybe 1 after 5 minutes or something like that.  I would rather not fight against ai, they will kill us all.


semp

edit: set a time limit attack within 30 40 minutes then unlimited lives 1/2 2 hour limit.

edit2: perhaps more air spawns for bombers, lower for fighters. something like that.

[Vraciu]

Let's start with something simple, like not using Brewsters outside of Finland.

Why?  They were used in Burma and Midway. 

 

[Devil 505]

Why?  They were used in Burma and Midway. 

 

Because our B-239 Brewster is not the same as the Navy/USMC's F2A-3 or British Commonwealth's Buffalo Mk. I's used at Midway, Burma, or Malaysia. The B-239 used by Finland has significantly better performance. For example, having a climb rate advantage about 600 ft/min better than the Buffalo Mk. 1. It's really a poor substitute despite being based on the same airframe.

[Vulcan]

Let's start with something simple, like not using Brewsters outside of Finland.

[Vraciu]

Because our B-239 Brewster is not the same as the Navy/USMC's F2A-3 or British Commonwealth's Buffalo Mk. I's used at Midway, Burma, or Malaysia. The B-239 used by Finland has significantly better performance. For example, having a climb rate advantage about 600 ft/min better than the Buffalo Mk. 1. It's really a poor substitute despite being based on the same airframe.

Ah, okay.  Makes sense.

[Nefarious]

Addressing Kuya's post, I don't think anything is needed game wise to implement AI into FSO. The only real design changes are plane set and numbers.

In a setup like Singapore Blitz, we could have done a 50/50 Allied/Axis split and used 54, 81, or even more G4Ms. In most assault style setups, the Attacker should have a numerical advantage to factor in the pilots who are required to fly bombers. That's why this event was 60/40 Axis.

I don't ever envision an event that uses AI fighters. I don't see us going down that road and I don't plan on creating events that have them.

I see AI as just another objective... Much like Task Forces, Airfields or Strat Targets. One side is defending them, the other side is attacking them. The only difference is that these are flying pre-determined routes that can't be changed in game, and at a much more reasonable (and historic) speed we see human bombers flying I might add. How the routes are created would have to be discussed by CMs and players.

The only real issue I have with AI bombers is that they can't land and the way they record in the ahevents logs. Because of limitations with AI and landing, the logs must end before the AI mission is ended. That way it doesn't record losses of aircraft that are still flying. If there was some way we could clean that up on either end, the logs would look much better after an event.

---

As for the Brewster, the Commonwealth and Netherland pilots in Malaya/Singapore were also field modding the B339C/D/E - de-navalized from the start, switching out 50s for 30s, removing armor, radios, loading less fuel and had access to some higher octane fuel in Singapore. And although not much, both British and Netherland Brews had a somewhat more powerful engine than the Finnish export. Reports say Commonwealth crews were able to cut 1,000lbs off the Brewster.

Were they exactly the same? No... but neither was the theater or opposition they faced.

[Nefarious]

If you haven't participated in Fortress Event using AI bombers yet, I am running my Fortress Singapore Event this Friday in SEA1 at the usual FSO time.

http://www.ahevents.net/index.php/setups/1314-fortress-singapore-1942

[guncrasher]

nefarious just for clarification if you still flying and logs ended, will that count as successful landing?


semp

[Nefarious]

nefarious just for clarification if you still flying and logs ended, will that count as successful landing?


semp

No.

While scoring may vary, that usually counts as a loss in most FSOs.

[Joker312]

Excellent idea.

Most of what I have read is. The only bad idea is Devil's hard on for the Brew. Don't know why he hates it so much, but it really seems like his personal jihad against a plane that is mediocre at best. Kind of like beating up on a retard.

It would be interesting to add some AI aircraft. This would create more targets and free up slots in fighter types for those who do not like to fly bombers.

It may even attract some players who don't think the current low numbers in FSO justify their staying up late to participate.

I also think the multi life FSO is a good idea. Not MA unlimited lives but some hybrid that will keep people around for the entire 2 hours.

[perdue3]

As a player, my biggest complaint about FSO currently is how late it is. It makes my Friday a 20 hour day and I miss often because I fall asleep or can't hold my eyes open past 10.

Having said that, there is no need for AI.