So the BKs are no more...

[oboe]

It's been years, so I really don't remember the details, only the result.  Both planes climb well, both recover energy quickly.  My lingering sense is that the Frank's low-speed flap use gave it an up on the Spit 8.

- oldman

Wouldn't the Hayate also have an advantage in roll rate over the Spit VIII?   And IIRC the Ki.84's Ho-5 20mm cannon are pretty devastating, though against Hispanos of the Spit it may be a wash.

[nrshida]

It's been years, so I really don't remember the details, only the result.  Both planes climb well, both recover energy quickly.  My lingering sense is that the Frank's low-speed flap use gave it an up on the Spit 8.

- oldman

Yup essentially in real life I gather the Spitfire's flaps were intended for landing, largely to slow down. I even pointed out many years ago that the angle of the graphics model was incorrect and HTC corrected it. There's was no answer to the question of the flight model having the same fault or not. I understand the flight model did not change. But then the Spitfire's wings give an incredible rate if you maintain the proper speed. 3G sustained, easily. Ki-84 measurably less.

Thanks for the civil response. That's refreshing! 

Wouldn't the Hayate also have an advantage in roll rate over the Spit VIII?   And IIRC the Ki.84's Ho-5 20mm cannon are pretty devastating, though against Hispanos of the Spit it may be a wash.

It would, but a rolling rate advantage I have found to be mostly useful as a defensive feature with a 6-12 merge. I fought Spit8s and 16s with an identical method and I think the 16's roll is pretty close if not better. Guns I guess come down to preference and experience. The Ho-5 muzzle-velocity is lower but still supersonic out to a decent distance with a bit less shell but more HE (really dredging the memory here). Also dispersal is more. The experimental 30-mm was of the same lineage, being based on Browning's M1 and not a API Blowback like the German  MK-108 

It might be surprising to some people to compare the real-life wing-loading of both of these airframes. Of course Fowlers increase wing area when deployed. I did measure it once but I have since lost the data.

As with most engagements it depends who is flying what, speed and alt

Eagler

Yes I used to think especially the who but that had reduced a lot towards my last shift of AH. JunkyII was very good in the 84 and Ink. There was another guy with a very unconventional technique I was impressed with. Can't remember his name. Alas many later 84-sticks I encountered would've been better off flying the late-model 109s instead.

Apologies for the terrible derail. There's a siren in my man-cave when Spitfire vs Ki-84 discussions come up (assuming I'm around).  I kind of miss Skuzzy. Miss a lot of things.

[Badboy]

My lingering sense is that the Frank's low-speed flap use gave it an up on the Spit 8.
- oldman

Hi Oldman

You pretty much nailed it. However, the advantage does swing at different times and is small and not easy to see without detailed analysis. Overall the advantage goes to the Ki84. The Ki84 has the edge in a couple of important ways and depends on factors that haven't been mentioned yet in this discussion. Allow me to explain.

In the Ki84 v Spit8 engagement the early stages of the fight yields a small advantage to the Spit. That is because the Spitfire has a slighter higher instantaneous turn rate at corner. We are talking 33.4dps for the Spit8 and 32.1 for the Ki84. That's only a 1.3dps advantage for the Spit8, but the problem is that both aircraft bleed speed quickly in this high G phase of the fight so the advantage only lasts long enough to result in a very small angular advantage to the Spit, which would be almost unnoticeable to most pilots.

After that, as both aircraft begin to stall fight at their respective sustained turn rates the edge remains with the Spit8 because the best sustained turn rate for the Spit8 is 24.3dps and for the Ki84 23.3dps so the advantage drops to 1dps. However, to achieve that the Ki84 must use flaps and in that situation the Ki84 has a slightly smaller radius which means that it would take at least 3 minutes for the spit to move onto the Ki84s tail but because of the Ki84s smaller radius the Spit can't pull lead for the shot. There is a BFM technique that can create that lead, but it needs to be repeated and takes time and can easily extend the duration of the fight to the point where the Spit loses it's WEP. At that point the advantage swings back to the Ki84.

The Ki84 has shorter WEP time than the spit8, but gets it back much more quickly. Once the Spit8 loses its WEP it is effectively gone for the rest of the fight. Without WEP the Spit's sustained turn rate drops to 22.3dps while the Ki84 still has access to its 23.3dps for a 1dps advantage. During the brief periods when the Ki84 loses WEP it drops back to an almost identical rate to the Spit8, and then oscillates between a 1dps advantage and neutral for the rest of the fight. In effect, if the Ki84 is still in the fight when the Spit8 runs out of WEP, the Spit8 will eventually be out turned. The 1dps is actually worth more to the Ki84 because as mentioned earlier, it has a slightly smaller turn radius and will not have any difficulty getting lead for a shot. But it gets worse! Because this all takes time and the Spit's fuel burns off far more quickly than the Ki84, the Ki84 can hang in the fight longer and has time to utilize its advantage.

So, here are the factors I mentioned earlier. The first factor is that from the perspective of the Spitfire pilot, staying in the fight after losing WEP is bad because not only is he going to be out turned by an aircraft with a smaller radius and no difficulty getting lead for a shot, he may also run out of fuel before the Ki84 has time to bring his guns to bear. The second factor is that given that the Spit8 is entirely defensive and needs to break off the engagement, at this point his escape window has slammed shut, and hard. The Spitfire simply can't can't break off, the Ki84 accelerates better and is faster so any attempt to extend or reset could only depend on a degree of good luck for its success. Such as the proximity of friendlies, ACK or a mistake by the Ki84 pilot.

In summary, the Spit8 has a small advantage while it's WEP holds out, but it is far from decisive. Any real advantage at this point will come from mistakes by the Ki84 pilot if he doesn't know how to use flaps and achieve a maximum sustained turn. Otherwise, once the Spit loses WEP, the advantage swings to the Ki84 and is now a more decisive advantage because the turn rate is combined with the smaller radius and the Ki84 has time on his side. The Spit can't stay in, and can't get out.

In my experience the main reason the Spit wins engagements with the Ki84 is because Ki84 pilots often lack this knowledge and don't fly with the same confidence and aggression as the Spits who just assume (quite wrongly) that they are flying the superior aircraft. In many ways aggressive Spitfire pilots are bluffing, they just don't have the advantage they think they do and if enough Ki84 pilots read this and fly more confidently... Trust me, the tables will turn.

When I fight a Ki84 I'm cautious with my WEP and if I see I'm fighting a Ki84 who knows what he's doing I know I'm in for a long tough fight. I will press for an advantage, but won't persist until it is too late. I look forward to Ki84 v Spit8 fights because they can be great fights and I've been in many that have gone exactly as I have described here because there are some very good Ki84 drivers in the game.

Hope that helps

Badboy

[Max]

We are talking 33.4dps for the Spit8 and 32.1 for the Ki84. That's only a 1.3dps advantage for the Spit8, but the problem is that both aircraft bleed speed quickly in this high G phase of the fight so the advantage only lasts long enough to result in a very small angular advantage to the Spit, which would be almost unnoticeable to most pilots.

Badboy

Kindly clarify dps. I suspect it has to do with sustained turn rate?

Thanks 

[popeye]

Yeah, the BKs were a great squad.  Lazs, Mute, and (embarrassed to say I don't remember the other guy), and I took a ride in a B-25 at a con in Florida.  Still have a video of that  somewhere.  Good times!

[Badboy]

Kindly clarify dps. I suspect it has to do with sustained turn rate?

Yes, any kind of turn rate in air combat is measured in degrees per second, or dps for short, so it is just convenient units that low turn rates are measured in. It's similar to the way a mechanics measures turn rate in revolutions per minute (thus rpm are the units) which are more convenient units for higher turn rates. In Air Combat turn rate is an indication of how quickly you can bring your guns to bear. To give you a sense of scale, anything more than 2dps is considered to be a decisive advantage. Because instantaneous turn rate is fleeting, the sustained values can be more important for protracted engagements.

The other kind of turn rate that hasn't been mentioned yet is pitch rate and can be important for snap shots. Some aircraft that don't have very good turn rates at all, such as the 190D9 for example, have such good control authority they can use their pitch rate, effectively rotating the aircraft about its own center of gravity, to rapidly increase their angle of attack to snap their nose into you for a shot. For example they might be approaching you head on with some flight path offset. You might think they are just doing a clean pass on the merge with a little turning room. Then just before you pass they snap their nose around and get hits. You can't do it in every aircraft, but in some you can use high pitch rate to produce high AoA for just long enough to get a snap shot. The catch is that if they miss, they just lost a massive amount of energy. They often don't care because they don't intend to fight anyway, that was all they had, and they just blow through and extend. Sometimes the aircraft that can do it can get more kills during B&Z attacks just because they can snap their nose onto the target during a high speed attack, while other aircraft in the game can't do it because of either low pitch rate or the control force modelling at the higher speeds typically used for B&Z attacks.

You might have noticed that in the game yourself? When most people encounter it for the first time they often think it was lag or some form of cheat I don't think it was ever used like that in WWII because it would have been painful, the pilot probably couldn't keep his eyes on the target to shoot and it would also be dangerous because something on the aircraft would end up broken. It is made possible in the game because we don't experience the effects of G force or need to worry about killing yourself by breaking your own aircraft. However,  around 20 years later Colonel J Boyd USAF did use a high pitch rate tactic in the 60s to win fights in under 40 seconds, something akin to the Cobra maneuver made popular by the Russians in the 90s.

But I digress...
 
Hope something there helped.

Badboy

[nrshida]

When most people encounter it for the first time they often think it was lag or some form of cheat

Except some of those Fockes do exactly the same when they're flying Messerschmitts.

[Badboy]

Except some of those Fockes do exactly the same when they're flying Messerschmitts.

Hi nrshida... they do indeed.

I find it safer to assume that every aircraft I engage is going to use every advantage it can. I never blame anyone for doing it because playing to our strengths is pretty much what we all do. It's easy to avoid, so if I ever take a hit that way, I know it's my own fault for being careless. Personally, I never use that sort of tactic myself. I almost always prefer to fight if possible (just because I enjoy it more and a quick kill would rob me of that) and for that purpose energy is way too precious.

Haven't seen you in the MA for a long time, are you still flying?

I've been on a lot over the last week, it almost feels like old times

Badboy

[mikeWe9a]

Kindly clarify dps. I suspect it has to do with sustained turn rate?

Thanks 

Degrees per second. 

[nrshida]

I find it safer to assume that every aircraft I engage is going to use every advantage it can.

Me too but I draw the line at an absolute anomoly of a connection so laggy you're reacting to a different fight to the one you're seeing - especially when backed by a stinking attitude which is harmful to gameplay and the player-base in general hence my recent complaint. But I played cricket as a boy so what do I know about getting 'results''

Haven't seen you in the MA for a long time, are you still flying?

One flits in, one flits out you know. Yes I've been in this last tour but my subscription ends on Sunday I think.

I almost always prefer to fight if possible (just because I enjoy it more and a quick kill would rob me of that) and for that purpose energy is way too precious.

I nearly abandoned this tour halfway through but began to run into TheStig, StepSis and Shane. Started flying the G14 in stupid-mode and had an absolute hoot. Tends to come a point where, as you say, you don't want to fire because you're having such a rewarding fight you don't want it to end. This week with Shane I set a new personal best in Speedo-limbo and saw 9-m.p.h. in my HUD. Bit of a stretch to say in full control but certainly with enough influence to draw it back. Absolutely live for those kind of fights. Wish there were a few more of those sticks around or at least accessible to CET.

I've been on a lot over the last week, it almost feels like old times

Well I hope to see you round in the air. Always a challenging fight 

[Rich46yo]

I don't recall any Blue Knights that ever had a BK in their name, even in the squads prime.

I remember the Bk's. Very well. It was a good squad.

[Shane]

I have the films - they were fun engagements with you and Stig, being great reminders of how planes can act at those low speeds and alt. 

Ammo? We doan need no steenkin' ammo! 

Hope you find enough motivation to stick around. 

I nearly abandoned this tour halfway through but began to run into TheStig, StepSis and Shane. Started flying the G14 in stupid-mode and had an absolute hoot. Tends to come a point where, as you say, you don't want to fire because you're having such a rewarding fight you don't want it to end. This week with Shane I set a new personal best in Speedo-limbo and saw 9-m.p.h. in my HUD. Bit of a stretch to say in full control but certainly with enough influence to draw it back. Absolutely live for those kind of fights. Wish there were a few more of those sticks around or at least accessible to CET.

[nrshida]

I have the films - they were fun engagements with you and Stig, being great reminders of how planes can act at those low speeds and alt. 

Wonder if we could encourage, coerce, blackmail or otherwise engage Mr Dolby to make a multi-perspective film. Promoting the anti-score / fun-challenge aspect of the game 

Hope you find enough motivation to stick around.

I'm just a bit overloaded with project work atm. Hope to return shortly and next time to be flying with my homemade joystick. 

 

[DmonSlyr]

Would be awesome if we could get the BK squad going again!