Author Topic: The Great Unwinding  (Read 7294 times)

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
The Great Unwinding
« on: July 14, 2022, 01:02:10 PM »

We will have to have a recession and housing and stock crash all together to get a handle on this inflation.  I think we'll get all 3 by the time the rates hit 3.2 - 3.5%.  I don't think they'll need to go above that and the second order effects will do the rest.  Our current unemployment rate could double and still not be THAT bad.  Even so, I'm not sure we'll ever see 2% inflation again.  If we can reign it in to 3-4% that will be awesome.  I'm using an assumption of 4% long-term in my retirement calculations.

But I'm glad I'm not European.  Not just because of the poor dental care and women with underarm hair.  Economically, I think they are fluffied.

France might weather the coming decade reasonably well, but the other countries are hosed.   

Germany is running into a demographic dead-end.  Unless they opened the gates to massive immigration, they losing a massive percentage of the productive workforce aging out.  And they screwed up their energy structure so bad they now have to chose between economic collapse or essentially becoming a Russian client state.

Europe doesn't have enough energy resources to maintain their current level of civilization and acquiring energy from Russia and the Middle East is going to become significantly harder over the coming decade. 









Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline morfiend

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10444
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2022, 01:42:01 PM »
Someone said Canadians don’t have fixed rat mortgages and they are totally wrong, I always had a fixed rate and a 25 year mortgage with 5 year terms. I was lucky enough to pay it off in just 13 years,as we’re allowed to pay up to 10% on the anniversary date and again at the end of each term. The last term the bank said at this rate you only need a 3 year term before it’s paid off.

Would be nice if someone actually did some research before they post nonsense.

Although it varies region to region where I live house prices fell a scant 4% but I’m in a high demand market. What you don’t see is the multiple offers and sales going for way over the asking price. The house next door sold 3 months ago and went for 120k over asking,not likely to see those sorts of things in the near future,which is changing to a buyers market for the first time in 4 or 5 years.

Been looking for a place on the lake and I’m hoping to be in the catbird seat soon.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2022, 01:51:58 PM »
Someone said Canadians don’t have fixed rat mortgages and they are totally wrong, I always had a fixed rate and a 25 year mortgage with 5 year terms.
Been looking for a place on the lake and I’m hoping to be in the catbird seat soon.

Real estate has the longest lag and slowest velocity.  It will be the last domino to fall.  After stock crash and job losses and recession.
I would expect at least a 30% drop in asking prices in markets like Austin and DFW over the next year or two.

Don't know how inflated things were in your area.
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18204
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2022, 01:55:45 PM »
Higher interest rates are needed to put value back in money which was eroded with super low basically free money for decades..

So sorry if it means you can't afford something as you have to finance it but it needs to go bsck up to at least 10% and stay there but...

It will not get back to that imo and it will quickly be raised with or without more new qe depending on how bad society becomes in this process

Perfect storm for some really bad times ahead

Eagler
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2022, 02:04:02 PM »
Been looking for a place on the lake and I’m hoping to be in the catbird seat soon.

I wouldn't expect lake property to to drop as much as other housing.  Lake property is historically an excellent investment if you can afford it. 

It is a structurally limited supply.  There are only so many lakes and they only have so much frontage.  They don't make new lakes very often (like maybe once a generation).  It's a mostly static supply.  It's like the real estate version of gold.



Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2022, 02:14:45 PM »


Oooofff.  It's going to be amazing to see how many PHD dissertations the Crypto debacle is going to spawn over the next decade.  For economists and psychologists.   :D


It's like someone coming up with the idea to sell buckets of air for $70,000 each.  Of course they need to keep the buckets to reuse.  You hand them your $70,000 and they pour the air into your hands.

Thank you!  Next customer!

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i-just-wake-up-and-cry-voyager-and-celsius-bankruptcies-have-destroyed-some-crypto-investors-confidence-in-centralized-platforms-11657803496?mod=home-page

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15721
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2022, 02:50:53 PM »
Higher interest rates are needed to put value back in money which was eroded with super low basically free money for decades..

So sorry if it means you can't afford something as you have to finance it but it needs to go bsck up to at least 10% and stay there but...

It will not get back to that imo and it will quickly be raised with or without more new qe depending on how bad society becomes in this process

Perfect storm for some really bad times ahead

Eagler

Low interest rates combat the fact that there is a huge divergence in hourly compensation (salary) to productivity and how much things actually cost. If interest rates were not low, nobody could afford to buy things that cost exponentially more than they did back when interest rates didn't matter because you made enough money to not need a loan.

If wages were congruent with corporate profits throughout the years, I don't think we'd have these sorts of issues. Trickle down economics that stops trickling at the very top. But hey, as long as Zuck, Bezos, and Musk take home $500b a year, all is well, right?
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18204
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2022, 02:54:30 PM »
Lower prices would come with higher interest rates...eventually

Lower prices are coming via recession and or depression depending on how they handle it

It prices don't drop tremendously it is all for nothing

People need to live within their means

Eagler
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2022, 03:14:48 PM »
Low interest rates combat the fact that there is a huge divergence in hourly compensation (salary) to productivity and how much things actually cost. If interest rates were not low, nobody could afford to buy things that cost exponentially more than they did back when interest rates didn't matter because you made enough money to not need a loan.

The problem with excessively, artificially low interest rates is that it promotes bubbles and mal-investment.  It's how you get excesses like crypto and SPACs and meme stocks, zombie companies and reckless overly inflated asset values that inevitably collapse.  When you hide the true cost of debt, people in the market tend to behave badly.

I would prefer seeing the rates pegged to some variation of the Taylor Rule.  Allow the Fed a little leeway plus or minus to steer events but not just unconstrained changes on a whim.  Some variation of the Taylor Rule would at least underpin  the rates to some rational relationship to GDP and economic conditions.

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2022, 04:26:15 PM »

You have to choose where "your money" shrinks whether it's cash in your hand or the value your investments.

Offline Lazerr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4845
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2022, 04:52:27 PM »
Lower prices would come with higher interest rates...eventually

Lower prices are coming via recession and or depression depending on how they handle it

It prices don't drop tremendously it is all for nothing

People need to live within their means

Eagler

Lower prices + higher interest rates = just getting bent over, over time... right?

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15721
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2022, 06:52:47 AM »
The problem with excessively, artificially low interest rates is that it promotes bubbles and mal-investment.  It's how you get excesses like crypto and SPACs and meme stocks, zombie companies and reckless overly inflated asset values that inevitably collapse.  When you hide the true cost of debt, people in the market tend to behave badly.

I would prefer seeing the rates pegged to some variation of the Taylor Rule.  Allow the Fed a little leeway plus or minus to steer events but not just unconstrained changes on a whim.  Some variation of the Taylor Rule would at least underpin  the rates to some rational relationship to GDP and economic conditions.


What came first, low wages and uber high prices or perpetually low interest rates?
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18204
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2022, 08:07:30 AM »
Lower prices + higher interest rates = just getting bent over, over time... right?

Cheap credit is a major issue

Those of us that don't need it want higher interest rates .. they need to raise them as high as possible now so that they can lower them in the future...nothing will change.

It is one thing that is saving the dollar as it is now equal to the euro

Eagler
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2022, 10:53:09 AM »
What came first, low wages and uber high prices or perpetually low interest rates?



I’m not exactly sure of your thesis.

Lower wages (inflation adjusted) for working folks started in the 80’s with decline of unions and the rise of globalization.

Truly deranged low interest rate manipulation started with Greenspan in the early 90’s. 

There seems to be an implied thesis in your statement that we can simply choose to hold interest rates at near zero forever without any negative repercussions.  That is not true.  How long can you hold your breath.  A minute?  Forever?  There is a natural level of interest rate that balances out increases in GPD, population growth, economic activity, availability of resources, etc.  You can deviate for that natural equilibrium for a limited period of time to nudge the economy in the short term, but you can’t simply peg it at a number out of balance forever without the negative effects compounding until an explosion occurs.   


Another implied thesis seems to be you think artificially low interest rates benefit working folks.  It doesn't really.  It’s like going on a spending binge with a new credit card.  It’s great fun for a little while, but eventually that bill arrives in the mail and the fun is over.  Artificially inflated asset prices like stocks and real estate don’t really help regular folks.  They really help the 10% of the population that own 90% of those assets, and that ain’t regular folks.

Young families who are just starting out have been totally priced out of the housing market over the last couple of years and housing prices have spiraled out of control in many areas.  It's turning whole generations into a population of permanent renters.  Apts aren't a great way to raise a family.

Young workers starting out saving for retirement and beginning to invest over the next are about to get seriously screwed.  After the market crashes and take a decade to get back to last Nov price levels will be carving out a big chunk of time out of their preparation for their retirement.  If they are young enough they will have some time to recover, but they will have lost ground and been put behind the curve.  And this is the same generation that probably had their careers derailed and delayed by the GFC.

Regular folks who are retired and living on fixed income get terribly screwed by rising inflation.  And worse, cheap money distorted the financial markets such that retirees, pension funds have been slowly squeezed for yield such that they have been forced out of safer investments like bonds into higher risk assets like equities just to be able to generate their needed return.  These investors should not be anywhere near that level of risk, but TINA (There is No Alternative)  and excessively low interest rates    made safer investment sources unsustainable.  This is going to cause MASSIVE societal problems when the music stops and these investors are caught still holding the bag.


Both the 2001 and 2008 crashes were the result of too loose money policy for too many years.  Those crashes are not in the interest of regular folks.  The next one is probably going to be worse than those two.  I think you’ll find the third economic collapse do to loose money derangement to be very painful for regular folks.     


« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 10:56:10 AM by CptTrips »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline zack1234

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13213
Re: The Great Unwinding
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2022, 10:56:13 AM »
We will have to have a recession and housing and stock crash all together to get a handle on this inflation.  I think we'll get all 3 by the time the rates hit 3.2 - 3.5%.  I don't think they'll need to go above that and the second order effects will do the rest.  Our current unemployment rate could double and still not be THAT bad.  Even so, I'm not sure we'll ever see 2% inflation again.  If we can reign it in to 3-4% that will be awesome.  I'm using an assumption of 4% long-term in my retirement calculations.

But I'm glad I'm not European.  Not just because of the poor dental care and women with underarm hair.  Economically, I think they are fluffied.

France might weather the coming decade reasonably well, but the other countries are hosed.   

Germany is running into a demographic dead-end.  Unless they opened the gates to massive immigration, they losing a massive percentage of the productive workforce aging out.  And they screwed up their energy structure so bad they now have to chose between economic collapse or essentially becoming a Russian client state.

Europe doesn't have enough energy resources to maintain their current level of civilization and acquiring energy from Russia and the Middle East is going to become significantly harder over the coming decade. 



Just read this.

Are you a simpleton who lives in a shoe box?

Unemployment could double and would not be a problem statement shows the stupidity of your mindset.

STOP watching YouTube and reading Wikidiot you are embarrassing yourself.

“When money dies” by Adam Ferguson ISBN 1910400300 a book made from paper

If I bought said book for you would you read it or wipe your butt with it?

There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario