Channeling Elfie: What if the US and Russia went to war in 1945?

[Elfie]

Oldman, I have to thank you for starting this thread. Good times ser. 

[Elfie]

After the defeat of Germany and Japan, the US war machine was fully ramped up. In 1944 the US built over 96,000 aircraft with 74,000
+ combat aircraft. In 1945 with the war winding down we built almost 46,000 with almost 36,000 combat aircraft from January to August. Similarly, almost 18,000 tanks and sp guns in '44 and about 12,000 in '45.

Had a war against the Soviets happened, the entirety of US production would have been focused on them. It also could easily have been a 2 front war, one front in Europe another in Asia using Japan as the base against the Soviet Far East.

I don't think they could have matched the US supply of war materials nor the logistics capabilities of the US.

Bloody, costly...yes. Don't think the Russians could have won it though unless the US politicians had fought it like they fought North Korea.

Something many folks forget all to often (obviously not you) is the manufacturing capability of the U.S. during WWII and it dwarfed most of the rest of the world combined.

https://civilianmilitaryintelligencegroup.com/us-industrial-might-in-world-war-ii-by-the-numbers/

[spudman]

Great points all Toad. Another point to consider is the civilian support for such an effort. If we had done as Patton suggested and attacked we would have been the aggressors.

[Elfie]

Great points all Toad. Another point to consider is the civilian support for such an effort. If we had done as Patton suggested and attacked we would have been the aggressors.

It's pretty easy to demonize your opponents and make them look subhuman.

[nrshida]

This is somewhat of a childish fantasy. There's a reason WW2 transitioned to a cold war despite all the militarisation and remaining conflicting ideology. A world war is such a drain on human resources that it jeopardises the global organised societies which supports the activity in the first place. Self-balancing is an observable theme in nature.

[guncrasher]

I'm not so sure that Russia and Japan would have become allies. They were pretty much enemies and Russia was planning on attacking Japan supposedly anyway.

Plus you got to think about the atomic weapon.

there was no nukes left at the end of ww2. all nuclear material was used.  getting it would have taken a bit longer probably into 46.


semp

[Arlo]

This is somewhat of a childish fantasy. There's a reason WW2 transitioned to a cold war despite all the militarisation and remaining conflicting ideology. A world war is such a drain on human resources that it jeopardises the global organised societies which supports the activity in the first place. Self-balancing is an observable theme in nature.

I suspect it involves a latent desire to imagine the U.S. as a completely unchallenged world dominator although I further suspect denial of such. 

[nrshida]

As Willy Wonka once said:

"So shines a piece of wisdom in this trollish world" 

[Rocco]

Interesting topic. I think talking just pure battlefield stuff the allies would have won. Europe isn't the only theatre to consider, the allies had a huge presence in the Pacific and could have created a 2 front war coming from the east (though a long trek to get to anything worthwhile) or up from the Middle East. Strategic bombers could have launched from East Africa and the Middle East as well. There's also the possibility of amphibious landings in the Baltics. By 1945 the allies were well versed in multi front wars and amphibious landings, and had access to approach Moscow from multiple directions. The Germans did not. It would have been a long, bloody, costly war but I think the allies would have won even without using nukes. The recovery would have taken decades.

Where this all falls apart is the home front. If the allies were the aggressor it would have been a VERY unpopular war. Just as the war is coming to a close and it looks like our soldiers will be coming home, our leaders decide to attack a country that has fought side by side with us (metaphorically) for years. No way the public would have supported it. morale would have plummeted. Probably riots, possibility of desertion. Guaranteed none of the politicians that were in favour of it would be around after the next election. Had the Soviets made the first strike that would be a whole different story. An ally stabbing the rest in the back would have produced a similar reaction as Pearl Harbour, and the home front would have rallied.

[Arlo]

A very well reasoned assessment in my opinion, Rocco. 

[Elfie]

Where this all falls apart is the home front. If the allies were the aggressor it would have been a VERY unpopular war. Just as the war is coming to a close and it looks like our soldiers will be coming home, our leaders decide to attack a country that has fought side by side with us (metaphorically) for years. No way the public would have supported it. morale would have plummeted. Probably riots, possibility of desertion. Guaranteed none of the politicians that were in favour of it would be around after the next election. Had the Soviets made the first strike that would be a whole different story. An ally stabbing the rest in the back would have produced a similar reaction as Pearl Harbour, and the home front would have rallied.

Patton said give me 10 days and I'll make it look like their fault.

Public opinion can be manipulated to a large degree.

[Chris79]

Patton said give me 10 days and I'll make it look like their fault.

Public opinion can be manipulated to a large degree.

All fine and dandy until the death toll after the first 2 months exceeds 100k, then public opinion will turn rabid. If the Soviets were smart, they would focus and the British forces. They were both economically and politically at risk. They also lacked adequate replacement personal for the dead and wounded. I would also try stirring up the commies in both France and Italy, im not sure much would come from this, but stirring the pot i the enemies back country would create at least some havoc.
Anglo American forces mostly faced German back benchers on the west front other then a few occasions.

[Rocco]

Patton said give me 10 days and I'll make it look like their fault.

Public opinion can be manipulated to a large degree.

You're not wrong. And this was a time where patriotism was extremely high. So short term it may have been business as usual. But I do think it would have had to have been something on the scale of Pearl or the blitz to convince the public to go the distance. I'm not just talking the US but the allies as a whole.

[Shuffler]

Wonder if more Russians died because we did not go to war with them......

[bj229r]

Stalin killed MILLIONS of them, less so after WW2 until his 1953 death. Solzhenitsyn said he killed 60 million