CAF B-17 Midair - Totally Destroyed - Dallas *GRAPHIC*

[Puma44]

Here’s Texas Raiders and the King Cobra on a better day.  At 5+08 the P-63 makes a profile pass showing how the wing and fuselage could block visibility under the belly.

[Vraciu]

I've watched this one 200 times.    The Kingcobra pilot was clearly taking interval on the Mustangs.   He was at the same height and spacing.   I wonder if lead dragged him through traffic because he came in low and wide...

https://twitter.com/DavidSFOX4/status/1591522623376211968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591522623376211968%7Ctwgr%5E0502e50da24cef814b493a716fb1c9ea361052a3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fb-17-in-horrific-mid-air-collision-at-dallas-airshow

[Vraciu]

Here’s Texas Raiders and the King Cobra on a better day.  At 5+08 the P-63 makes a profile pass showing how the wing and fuselage could block visibility under the belly.

https://youtu.be/uT9W17EgGbk[/youtube]

You can see some of the spacing rules I talked about in this video.  I also note the fighters are much higher on the same-direction flyby than the B-17.   This is more in line with what I expect to see during the Bombers on Parade segment.

[TryHard]

This is terrible, a senseless loss of life and history with all due respect.
I really hope the impact of the P63 rendered all those on-board unconscious and from the looks of the pictures I've seen it appears that may be the case for those in the cockpit, it was a substantial impact.

A midair collision shouldn't be possible with proper safety margins, there is a saying in the military that complacency kills and no mater what the NTSB finds the root cause of the collision is at the end of the day it's just complacency.

[Traveler]

Looks like he goosed it trying to close and re position with the 51's and lost sight of the B17 in his turn, What happened to the 10,000 or below 250 Knot rule? Air show or no air show, the air boss can't override that rule.  His extra speed in the 30* bank drifted him right into the B17. 

[Vraciu]

Looks like he goosed it trying to close and re position with the 51's and lost sight of the B17 in his turn, What happened to the 10,000 or below 250 Knot rule? Air show or no air show, the air boss can't override that rule.  His extra speed in the 30* bank drifted him right into the B17.

1) He was not exceeding 250 knots in my opinion.

2) That limit can indeed be exceeded with exemptions.   Anyone that has seen the Super Hornet/Viper/Eagle/Raptor demo or the Thunderbirds/Blue Angels has witnessed over 250 KIAS.

3) He was not "goosing" it.   He was keeping pace. 

I'm becoming convinced that the lead Mustang was too low and too wide throwing his wingmen out of position.

Also, one of my fellow instructors recently had the P-63 pilot in the simulator and said he was a "good stick" -- no red flags.   

[Vraciu]

§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

[Puma44]

Looks like he goosed it trying to close and re position with the 51's and lost sight of the B17 in his turn, What happened to the 10,000 or below 250 Knot rule? Air show or no air show, the air boss can't override that rule.  His extra speed in the 30* bank drifted him right into the B17. 

Airshow/Demonstration waivers.

[Traveler]

I haven't seen a radar trace and don't know what his speed was, but he was from the video I've seen the fastest guy in the sky at the time of the crash.

I'm sure the NTSB will review all the filed exemptions requests and see which ones if any were OK'ed  by the FAA.   In my youth, I flew heavy iron for Eastern and would pick up extra cash flying for a company that put war birds on static display at airshows east of the Mississippi un and down the East coast all summer long.  But I only dropped them off and picked they up I never stayed for the shows.

What ever he was doing it didn't work.  and from the video I did see, his excess speed seemed to carry him into the F17.  Perhaps to low to dip under, slow and reposition for the B17 if that was his intention, but if he was attempting to close with the P51's he was way out of position and just didn't see the B17.     

He may have been a great stick, the best in the world, just not at that moment. stuff happens.  That's why I hate airshows, seems like something always happens.

[Vraciu]

..but if he was attempting to close with the P51's...

He was not trying to close.  He was keeping the same interval from #2 as #2 was with the leader. 

https://twitter.com/DavidSFOX4/status/1591522623376211968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591522623376211968%7Ctwgr%5E0502e50da24cef814b493a716fb1c9ea361052a3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fb-17-in-horrific-mid-air-collision-at-dallas-airshow

I haven't seen a radar trace and don't know what his speed was, but he was from the video I've seen the fastest guy in the sky at the time of the crash.

The three fighters were all at the same speed. 

What ever he was doing it didn't work.  and from the video I did see, his excess speed seemed to carry him into the F17.  Perhaps to low to dip under, slow and reposition for the B17 if that was his intention, but if he was attempting to close with the P51's he was way out of position and just didn't see the B17.     

He was in position and on speed based on the preceding airplanes.   Lead may have gotten too low and dragged him through.

I will also point out that the fighters generally outpace the Bombers during the show regularly unless they are in close formation in them.

I'm sure the NTSB will review all the filed exemptions requests and see which ones if any were OK'ed  by the FAA.   

When the Air Boss has control of the field that's who is in charge.  The exemption is a blanket one and each performer has to be qualified for flyby, low approaches, formation, aerobatics, etc.  There were no regulatory violations here.


They have a dry run practice that everyone participates in.  The Boss said the other day even he can't quite figure out what went wrong. 

He may have been a great stick, the best in the world, just not at that moment. stuff happens.  That's why I hate airshows, seems like something always happens.

Nobody was being careless or reckless.    Default blaming of the Kingcobra pilot lacks context at best.

[Busher]

No one has even mentioned the possible medical issue. If the information I read is accurate, the pilot of the P63 was 62 years old and from the photo I saw, somewhat overweight.
Puma knows better than any of the other pilots (or former pilots) the effects that "G" can have on a pilot's field of vision.
I am offering this as neither an excuse nor an explanation for this catastrophe.

[Vraciu]

No one has even mentioned the possible medical issue. If the information I read is accurate, the pilot of the P63 was 62 years old and from the photo I saw, somewhat overweight.
Puma knows better than any of the other pilots (or former pilots) the effects that "G" can have on a pilot's field of vision.
I am offering this as neither an excuse nor an explanation for this catastrophe.

His average speed based on ADS-B data was 176 knots.   His max speed was 198 knots. 

Medical is a consideration,  but this guy has been flying P-39s and P-63s for a long time.   The load factor at 200 knots is not likely incapacitating.

[Vraciu]

I haven't seen a radar trace and don't know what his speed was, but he was from the video I've seen the fastest guy in the sky at the time of the crash.

As I stated before, this is not true.

I just checked the ADS-B log.   The P-51 Mustang ahead of the P-63 Kingcobra was doing 209 knots.   The maximum speed attained by the Kingcobra was 198 knots.   

The Mustangs were doing 179 at one point in the circuit with the Kingcobra doing 176.   

The B-17's data is not as clear but it was mostly in the 140-150 knot range, as expected.

Just prior to impact it appears the P-63 was doing 174 knots (with one hit showing 178 knots) and the #2 Mustang was going 175 knots (with one hit showing 181 knots).     As I said before,  the fighters were at the same speeds and intervals in the accident video.   If anything,  the Kingcobra was slower.

At no time did any data from the P-63 exceed 198 knots.

[Traveler]

They have a dry run practice that everyone participates in.  The Boss said the other day even he can't quite figure out what went wrong. 

Perhaps the problem is with the airboss and his plan.  The video I've seen show the P51 well above the bombers, so was the B17 off altitude or the 63?  Someone was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  If they were all on plan then it has to be the plan.

[Vraciu]

The video I've seen show the P51 well above the bombers, so was the B17 off altitude or the 63?  Someone was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  If they were all on plan then it has to be the plan.

Well, clearly someone was out of position.   

And if you look at all the footage the P-51s are not "well above" the B-17.  (ADS-B shows them all within 100' of each other.)

Here's a snapshot to prove my point.

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=4655&t=1


Someone may have lined up on the wrong show line. Someone may have been too high or too low. Someone may have been too far ahead (B-17) or behind (Fighters).

The fighters were a formation.   Lead has to hit his spot--but so does the B-17.

Perhaps the problem is with the airboss and his plan. 

It's not the Air Boss' plan.  It's a group effort created by highly experienced people who've been doing this safely for decades.   People can and do make mistakes.  As I've said a thousand times,  "Human factors can only be MITIGATED,  never ELIMINATED."