SVB

[guncrasher]

it's not just about taxes.

Just like they control what people can buy with EBT cards. With a US digital currency, every single penny will be tracked - it's entire history. So the government can see every single thing you buy. They could control how every penny is spent if they want too, and they could even eliminate it from existence at any time they want. That's total control of all of your money and no chance for you to hold physical dollars to get around any of it.

ebt cards are controlled so nobody goes to McDonald's or alcohol or cigarettes or anything that is not food.


semp

[Brooke]

From people in favor of CBDC, all I usually see is "it wouldn't harm me, and I don't believe there is any potential future danger to it".  OK, but does anyone feel that it would benefit you personally?

[Meatwad]

Another way to illegally control the population, one step closer the death of freedom

[CptTrips]

Another way to illegally control the population, one step closer the death of freedom

It all started with fluoridation.  Precious.  Bodily.  Fluids.

[Vulcan]

CBDC would not be anonymous.

From the Fed regarding CBDC:

"Financial institutions in the United States are subject to robust rules that are designed to combat money laundering and the financing of terrorism. A CBDC would need to be designed to comply with these rules. In practice, this would mean that a CBDC intermediary would need to verify the identity of a person accessing CBDC, just as banks and other financial institutions currently verify the identities of their customers."

https://www.federalreserve.gov/cbdc-faqs.htm

CBDC would be like a debit card, not like cash.

CBDC has to comply with those rules in the same way cash does. It won't be like a debit card (otherwise then it would just be a debit card).

You do know a lot of the CBDC discussions are in the public domain, and the banks from the countries you mentioned are still figuring out what CBDC is going to be... it's years if not decades away (if they can work it out at all).
 
All the assumptions you are making are completely wrong. During times of disaster an offline monetary system is essential - and central banks know this.

[guncrasher]

Another way to illegally control the population, one step closer the death of freedom

I  suggest you get one of these, I own 2 myself




https://youtu.be/Cf3RfidFKBw

semp

[Brooke]

CBDC has to comply with those rules in the same way cash does.

I see our difference.

You are defining "cash" as meaning "your bank account".  That is OK.

I am defining "cash" as Federal Reserve notes (i.e., paper $1, $5, etc. bills).  That is also OK.

But they aren't the same thing.

Bank accounts are not anonymous.

Federal Reserve notes are anonymous.  In financial lingo, they are bearer instruments.

You won't be able anonymously to get a CDBC card.  You'll need a bank account or equivalent to get one, including all the ID proof needed to get such an account, and with every transaction recorded and stored.

It won't be like a debit card (otherwise then it would just be a debit card).

It will be, but with maybe one significant advantage to you, and at least one big advantage to the government.

During times of disaster an offline monetary system is essential - and central banks know this.

CBDC would require online systems.

Offline is physical currency.

[guncrasher]

federal reserve notes are anonymous. but who cares. I pay all my bills, groceries, everything on line or debit card or creditcard. Ihaven't set a foot in a bank in at least a year, that was to replace a lost debit card.

the government can check at anytime how I spend my money.

you expect me to believe that the new system will be any different, if or ever goes online.

how many bs threads have you posted about how our fredoms are taken away.

remember the one about straws being banned in california? and somehow it was taken out freedoms.

guess what we still have straws around here.


semp

. 

[Vulcan]

I see our difference.

You are defining "cash" as meaning "your bank account".  That is OK.

....

You won't be able anonymously to get a CDBC card.  You'll need a bank account or equivalent to get one, including all the ID proof needed to get such an account, and with every transaction recorded and stored.

...

CBDC would require online systems.

Offline is physical currency.

Wrong wrong and wrong.

Nobody even knows what CBDC is going to be right now. Whether it will be some sort of digital tokens stored on a card, or not.

These are things that are all being discussed by central banks (and openly). One of the goals is for CBDC to replace cash, and to do that it must be able to replicate the features of cash (such as offline capabilities). There is no point in rolling our a CBDC if adoption is low (and nobody will 'forced' to use it).

Our difference is I work for a central bank currently discussing CBDC.

[Brooke]

Not sure if this is addressed to me.

you expect me to believe that the new system will be any different, if or ever goes online.

No, I don't expect it to be different.

federal reserve notes are anonymous. but who cares. . . .
the government can check at anytime how I spend my money.

Some folks have that same feeling because they don't envision anyone in the government (or with ties to into government) coming after them as a result of legal opposition.

Privacy from the government is in there as a practical measure to hinder that dynamic.

[guncrasher]

Not sure if this is addressed to me.

No, I don't expect it to be different.

Some folks have that same feeling because they don't envision anyone in the government (or with ties to into government) coming after them as a result of legal opposition.

Privacy from the government is in there as a practical measure to hinder that dynamic.

it happens all the time now.  inside trading....

you believe in the illusion that we aren't watched by the government. Martha Stewart didn't go to jail for buying a can of tomatoes.


semp

[Brooke]

Our difference is I work for a central bank currently discussing CBDC.

If you work for the Fed, and if you work in the group doing the CBDC planning, or if your are a Fed board member, then I will take your word for it on how CBDC is planned to work.

Otherwise (if you work for a non-US central bank, or work for the Fed but in a capacity not responsible for CBDC), I still have my own thoughts on it.

You said CDBC would allow for anonymous transactions.

If we are talking about US, the Fed says it wouldn't be anonymous:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/cbdc-faqs.htm

Of course, since right now it's not implemented, we are arguing over what might be.

I am not going to convince you.

Unless you are working on CDBC's in the Fed, you aren't going to convince me.

But we had a fun discussion about it, I think.

[Brooke]

you believe in the illusion that we aren't watched by the government.

Semp, I believe that we *are* watched by the government.  A lot.

Including in ways transgressing authority (Snowden, etc.).

Privacy protections reduce the amount of that going on.

People get fixated upon the idea of "well, no matter what I do, they can get around it if they really want to, so I won't bother doing anything".

But consider locks on houses and cars, passwords for bank accounts, etc.  Those protections aren't 100% effective.  Criminals can get around those things if they do enough.  But those protections cut down a lot compared to having nothing at all.  We deem it worth it to have locks, passwords, etc. to reduce transgressions.

I feel the same way about privacy protections.

[Vulcan]

If you work for the Fed, and if you work in the group doing the CBDC planning, or if your are a Fed board member, then I will take your word for it on how CBDC is planned to work.

Otherwise (if you work for a non-US central bank, or work for the Fed but in a capacity not responsible for CBDC), I still have my own thoughts on it.

You said CDBC would allow for anonymous transactions.

If we are talking about US, the Fed says it wouldn't be anonymous:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/cbdc-faqs.htm

Of course, since right now it's not implemented, we are arguing over what might be.

I am not going to convince you.

Unless you are working on CDBC's in the Fed, you aren't going to convince me.

But we had a fun discussion about it, I think.

No I don't work for the fed, I live outside the US but do work for a central bank of one the countries you have named. I don't see what the fed are describing on that FAQ as being any better than online banking through a regular bank account to be honest.

Any future digital currency must be able to work offline, we have observed cash rising in importance in scenarios such as disasters where internet connectivity is problematic or non-existent. And anonymity is not just about privacy, but the shear number of transactions we'd have to monitor would be phenomenal. Monitoring larger transactions (say over $10k) is expected to meet anti-laundering/anti-terrorism laws - but monitoring all those little $1 stripper tips... hell no.

tbh I suspect CBDC will actually fall into the too hard basket for most central banks. The perfect solution would be some sort heavily encrypted token stored on a hardened hardware device. But quantum computing will always make even that questionable.

[Brooke]

I don't see what the fed are describing on that FAQ as being any better than online banking through a regular bank account to be honest.

I think so, too.

Except maybe for this angle.

With a US CBDC, paying with it would be like paying with a debit card.

But if you could accept payment from one, then it is like you having a merchant account.  This would be a big deal, since it would give everyone the equivalent of a merchant account, which otherwise is a huge hassle and difficult to get in the US.

This is a hurdle for CBDC being implemented in the US, however.  Since Visa and Mastercard (etc.) and associated banks get a large amount of money for being in the middle of such transactions, if they were to lose that, they would lobby hard against CBDC.

But, in the US, CBDC would supposedly be administered by private entities -- probably then banks.  Maybe using your CBDC to accept payments would incur substantial fees (akin to merchant account transaction fees), in which case it would perhaps not be lobbied against.

Any future digital currency must be able to work offline, we have observed cash rising in importance in scenarios such as disasters where internet connectivity is problematic or non-existent. And anonymity is not just about privacy, but the shear number of transactions we'd have to monitor would be phenomenal. Monitoring larger transactions (say over $10k) is expected to meet anti-laundering/anti-terrorism laws - but monitoring all those little $1 stripper tips... hell no.

I don't think the US would care that much about the offline aspect.  Folks are used to credit cards as the way to buy everything  Any disaster big enough to take out credit card transactions has tended to take out telecoms, electricity, transportation, policing, civil order, etc., and folks aren't transacting in cash then either, as it just devolves into looting, being stuck in or on a house and needing rescue, etc.

Also, transaction load is already handled for credit cards for everything, from $1 on up.  Costco, supermarkets, appliance stores, restaurants, gas stations, doctor's office, dentist, etc. -- all in-person payment is mostly credit card transaction.  If strippers get paid in cash (and they probably can accept credit-card payment, too), it is probably mainly because folks don't want the transaction recorded on a bank statement for others to see later.  Or for government to know you owe taxes on it.

The perfect solution would be some sort heavily encrypted token stored on a hardened hardware device. But quantum computing will always make even that questionable.

I don't think it would be popular in the US.  Cards would get stolen.  They would get run through the washer and dryer or stepped on and broken.  I think folks would want it to work like a credit card instead.  That's what they are used to.  Also, the government would want to keep track of every transaction.

Also, if you can get rid of paper Federal Reserve notes, you get the ability to deploy highly negative interest rates, as there are no bills to take out to get at last a zero interest rate on them sitting under your mattress.  Or you could do a stimulus that goes away if it isn't spent by a certain date.  Or you could disallow use of stimulus or other cash to buy certain things.  Or you can automatically doc someone's cash for alimony payments or if the government or some government-linked agency thinks you owe money.  Or more Orwellian/Chinese if you aren't being a Good Citizen.

My guess is that Americans will be highly resistant to cash being outlawed or going away completely, even though they don't actually use it that much.

But then I never would have guessed that stuff happening in 2020-2022 would ever happen here.