Author Topic: The joy of winning a map in this game  (Read 3090 times)

Offline oboe

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2023, 08:42:45 AM »
How do you balance 3 sides? 

Doesn't the the current 3-sides get grossly out of balance on a regular basis?

I *think* the imbalance occurs daily, if I understand correctly.  Generally, every morning the Bishops outnumber the other two sides combined by 2 or 3 to 1.  ENY and the perk rewards of auto-side switching don't seem to have an effect.   This is when the total arena population is 20-30 players, so it takes just a few extra players on one side to create a significant imbalance.


Offline CptTrips

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2023, 08:52:49 AM »
I *think* the imbalance occurs daily, if I understand correctly.  Generally, every morning the Bishops outnumber the other two sides combined by 2 or 3 to 1.  ENY and the perk rewards of auto-side switching don't seem to have an effect.   This is when the total arena population is 20-30 players, so it takes just a few extra players on one side to create a significant imbalance.

So it seems  3 sides has no magic ability to control imbalance.  When you point that out, they claim 3 sides has nothing to do with number balance.  Then they later turn around because they say 2 sides wouldn't work because it would lead to side number imbalance. 

Even though 3 sides is not supposed to have anything to do with balance and doesn't seem to maintain side balance itself.

Then they say 3 sides is to create more fights.  But with theses numbers there is often only enough players for one great fight and that is often on a segment of the front that one of the 3 teams can't get to and is excluded from the action.

Two sides would not have balance problems any worse that 3 sides, but would have the advantage that any fight along the front would be accessible by all players on both sides.

Ideally the system would be configured to handle either mode.  But the real problem with two sides is that it would take non-trivial software development to rework the win-the-war logic to handle both modes.  That is probably more coading than can reasonably be expected at this point in the games life-cycle. 

So yeah, really small maps are probably the second best choice.






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Offline Shuffler

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2023, 09:35:45 AM »
I think you are ALL imbalanced.    :rofl


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Offline oboe

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2023, 09:45:49 AM »
So it seems  3 sides has no magic ability to control imbalance.  When you point that out, they claim 3 sides has nothing to do with number balance.  Then they later turn around because they say 2 sides wouldn't work because it would lead to side number imbalance. 

Even though 3 sides is not supposed to have anything to do with balance and doesn't seem to maintain side balance itself.

Then they say 3 sides is to create more fights.  But with theses numbers there is often only enough players for one great fight and that is often on a segment of the front that one of the 3 teams can't get to and is excluded from the action.

Two sides would not have balance problems any worse that 3 sides, but would have the advantage that any fight along the front would be accessible by all players on both sides.

Ideally the system would be configured to handle either mode.  But the real problem with two sides is that it would take non-trivial software development to rework the win-the-war logic to handle both modes.  That is probably more coading than can reasonably be expected at this point in the games life-cycle. 

So yeah, really small maps are probably the second best choice.

Actually I think the problem is low numbers, which magnify the side imbalance.  Seems to be human nature - most people do not chose a side in order to try to even sides out, they just fly where their friends or familiar names are, or stay with the same side out of habit.

I *just* logged in now to check.  There is a new map up, the previous map was reset 32 minutes ago.  Current arena pop is 12, with 7 flying for Bishop, 4 for Rook.  I was the only Knight, and I had just popped in for a quick check.  So basically its a two-sided battle right now, and the sides are out of balance by almost 2 to 1.

I think Hitech as settled on 3-sided as the best option among all the other options, and I wouldn't expect a large effort from him to change to 2 sided at this point in AH.  I don't think its that difficult to find a fight either, you just have to be willing to switch sides and jump in, if your current side is being iced out or ignored.   But that's easy for me to say here, it's a little different when it comes to doing it in the game.

Myself, I'd like to try 4 sides (Diamonds, Hearts, Spades and Clubs), and MUCH larger maps (so 6 or 7 players couldn't reset the map in the wee hours when no one else is online to organize a defense). 

I'd like FOUR fronts instead of three, with lots of areas of very closely spaced bases for fast fights.   It would be interesting to shake things up and break up the chess piece loyalty, but I'm sure it wouldn't take long for new loyalties to crystallize and the same types of imbalance problems to show up.


   
 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 10:04:34 AM by oboe »

Offline CptTrips

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2023, 10:12:16 AM »
I'd like FOUR fronts instead of three,

IMHO, that would just make the problem worse, but it is a moot point.   You are not going to get any such changes as it would require more coading than is going to be done at this point. 

The only real help I see is just making maps smaller and tighter to squeeze the activity together.  That is all you can do mostly at the player base level, with your own effort.  It takes HTC out of the critical path.  All the effort from HTC would then be from approval and provisioning. No meaningful coading required.

I think there is a limit to how much smaller maps themselves will help, but I think it is the only lever you have to work with.

$0.02.


« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 10:22:43 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2023, 03:25:01 PM »
Nobody wants this game to turn into one giant single fight everyday. Two sides guarantees that.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2023, 05:05:06 PM »
Nobody wants this game to turn into one giant single fight everyday. Two sides guarantees that.

Call me Nobody

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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2023, 05:18:14 PM »
Nobody feels like a familiar call sign from back in the day when I first started. Is there still a nobody?

Call me Nobody

Eagler
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline CptTrips

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2023, 06:25:01 PM »
Nobody wants this game to turn into one giant single fight everyday. Two sides guarantees that.

I've played two sided games where it didn't end in one giant fight.  But if you only have enough players for one good furball, it'd be nice if all players could access it.

But if you like the current system, your in luck.  There is no chance it will change.  Not if it would require a recoding of the win-the-war logic. 

 Bon appetit.
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2023, 07:22:06 PM »
I've played two sided games where it didn't end in one giant fight.  But if you only have enough players for one good furball, it'd be nice if all players could access it.

But if you like the current system, your in luck.  There is no chance it will change.  Not if it would require a recoding of the win-the-war logic. 

 Bon appetit.

I do like it but I’m not a big furballer anyway. I think what we have now provides the greatest flexibility of game play to cater to the hard core gamer and down to the once a monther. I get both sides and don’t disparage anyone for what they like. Pretty sure I’m still playing either way but I can’t speak for everyone.

You’re probably right about the heavy lift the coding would take. Guessing that’s why a lot of things are not on the books for now. Plus what happens if the game had a rebirth to larger numbers? Could it be easily switched back. Lots more to consider than just “hordes” which is how this conversation is usually framed in the MA.

I enjoy the discussion for sure. We should give it its own thread lol. Has HiTech chimed in on this on the last couple of years?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2023, 07:24:16 PM by Dadtallica »
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline 1stpar3

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2023, 07:30:13 PM »
Nobody feels like a familiar call sign from back in the day when I first started. Is there still a nobody?
Nobody- Odee- Oz Dillon, he hasnt played for a few years. I flew with him in several Scenarios and Special Events. Great Guy :aok
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Offline Eagler

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2023, 06:35:15 AM »
Code changes are out

Our only hope are smaller maps to match the smaller numbers

And I mean much much smaller maps to concentrate the action

Eagler
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2023, 08:06:36 AM »
Nobody- Odee- Oz Dillon, he hasnt played for a few years. I flew with him in several Scenarios and Special Events. Great Guy :aok

Thought so.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2023, 08:41:08 AM »
2 sides has been questioned for decades. If it were just dogfights sure, land grabbers would truly ruin the concept very quickly. Once one country grown much larger then the only other country,… just stick a fork in it and call it over. Lust for dominance and human nature. 3 countries avoid a single dominance.

No matter what spin someone puts on the 2 country concept, its all been said 1000 times before, for decades. If ya wanna cook the game real quick, go 2 countries. It all looks good on paper, until human nature takes over, its not predictable. Careful what ya wish for.

As far as land grabs, bases were just a reason to fight.

This is a 35 yr convo. The dead horse flat.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 08:46:37 AM by Animl-AW »

Offline LCADolby

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Re: The joy of winning a map in this game
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2023, 09:21:32 AM »
2 sides has never worked, counterintuitively 3 is the best balance.

You can code the game but you can't re-code people into not taking the path of least resistance.
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