Author Topic: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi  (Read 254 times)

Offline Banshee7

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Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« on: August 23, 2023, 02:43:17 PM »
I'm reading Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 by Martin Caidin, and within that book tells a story of an Italian pilot named Guido Rossi that flew a captured P-38 and shot down straggling B-17s returning from missions.  Harold Fisher, B-17 pilot, was on his 20th mission when he was shot down by Rossi.  Fisher came up with a plane to bait Rossi into attacking a YB-40 that eventually worked.  Have y'all ever heard of this story before?  I am at work and wanted to make a quick post while it was on my mind.  I haven't looked on the internet for more information.  I just thought I would share because it's a wild story!

<S>

Josh

Edit:  Just did a quick search and found this.  Sorry!

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,148243.0.html
« Last Edit: August 23, 2023, 02:45:54 PM by Banshee7 »
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2023, 02:54:50 PM »
Yeah, Martin Caiden was notorious for his embellishments. I don't even own the book. Considering my affinity for most things P-38..........
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Banshee7

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2023, 02:57:57 PM »
Yeah, Martin Caiden was notorious for his embellishments. I don't even own the book. Considering my affinity for most things P-38..........

It was gifted to me, but that's good to know! Guess I won't be reading Thunderbolt:rofl :rofl

I need to go back through and read the Warren Bodie book Dan gifted me back when I was in college!
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Offline oboe

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2023, 04:06:32 PM »
I think I've enjoyed the Caiden titles I've read - just think of it as historical fiction...   

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2023, 04:24:50 PM »
It was gifted to me, but that's good to know! Guess I won't be reading Thunderbolt:rofl :rofl

I need to go back through and read the Warren Bodie book Dan gifted me back when I was in college!

It's okay to read Caiden, you just need to do what you did here, and validate everything. By all means, read Thunderbolt.

Bodie's book is the definitive source for the plane itself, the development, and some of the military documentation. It's not necessarily the source for information about pilots, action, and deployment. There's a lot more that Bodie knew, that he left out, for whatever reason. There are those that accuse him of lying, falsifying data, etc., but I have never found that to be the case, no one has ever provided proof. Unfortunately, I do not know what happened to all the stuff Bodie collected and compiled, maybe Widewing does.

There's a lot to be learned from Tony LeVier, not just the book, but interviews and such. From interviews you will learn that Tony and Kelly Johnson were working on hydraulic boost for the ailerons in early 1942, if for no other reason than Tony said that he was tired of dislocating his shoulder doing aileron roll tests. And the dive flaps were in development as well. Tony was also doing a ton of engine and turbocharger testing, he was testing power and durability on EVERY test flight.

There's stuff out there by our own Widewing, AKA Corey C. Jordan, and Dr. Carlo Kopp, with regards to actual performance, deployment, and combat, with some quotes from my friends, Captain Stan Richardson Jr., and Captain Arthur Heiden. I think Widewing's article on the P-38K has been taken down, and/or lost. I spent a fair amount of time corresponding with Warren, Stan, and Art, for a few years, before Art was hit with a debilitating stroke that put him in a nursing home. Unfortunately, the emails are probably lost, unless I can retrieve the hard drives from my ex wife's attic, and find a way to retrieve the emails. There's also emails from guys who flew the Mediterranean theater, and some from the Pacific. Including the Ploesti P-38 raid, and the massive furball with the Italian planes (one of my friends was able to bag three in that). 

Interesting thing about the P-38K (for those who don't know, it was flown in April of 1943, with 1800+ HP Allison engines, J model intercoolers, and 13'-6" three blade Hamilton Standard hydrostatic High Activity paddle props), despite the War Production Board declining it. It turns out that, a year later, in April/May 1944, when the 8th AF was still trying to get enough fighters, and the best fighters possible, the U.S. Army Air Corps Material Command specifically requested the P-38K be produced and deployed. By that time, it would have likely had four blade props, not the three blade props it was tested with. While dive speed wouldn't be increased, the dive recovery flaps would have been installed.

You can stumble across a lot of stuff, if you look. I think I have maybe a dozen or so books on the P-38, including a couple on some of the pilots. I have 2-3 on the P-47 as well. I used to have a bit of time to search and research. Maybe again when I "retire". But stuff is disappearing quickly.

"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2023, 04:25:50 PM »
I think I've enjoyed the Caiden titles I've read - just think of it as historical fiction...

That is an excellent way to look at it. Very well said.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Banshee7

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Re: Harold Fisher vs. Guido Rossi
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2023, 05:31:58 PM »
It's okay to read Caiden, you just need to do what you did here, and validate everything. By all means, read Thunderbolt.

Bodie's book is the definitive source for the plane itself, the development, and some of the military documentation. It's not necessarily the source for information about pilots, action, and deployment. There's a lot more that Bodie knew, that he left out, for whatever reason. There are those that accuse him of lying, falsifying data, etc., but I have never found that to be the case, no one has ever provided proof. Unfortunately, I do not know what happened to all the stuff Bodie collected and compiled, maybe Widewing does.

There's a lot to be learned from Tony LeVier, not just the book, but interviews and such. From interviews you will learn that Tony and Kelly Johnson were working on hydraulic boost for the ailerons in early 1942, if for no other reason than Tony said that he was tired of dislocating his shoulder doing aileron roll tests. And the dive flaps were in development as well. Tony was also doing a ton of engine and turbocharger testing, he was testing power and durability on EVERY test flight.

There's stuff out there by our own Widewing, AKA Corey C. Jordan, and Dr. Carlo Kopp, with regards to actual performance, deployment, and combat, with some quotes from my friends, Captain Stan Richardson Jr., and Captain Arthur Heiden. I think Widewing's article on the P-38K has been taken down, and/or lost. I spent a fair amount of time corresponding with Warren, Stan, and Art, for a few years, before Art was hit with a debilitating stroke that put him in a nursing home. Unfortunately, the emails are probably lost, unless I can retrieve the hard drives from my ex wife's attic, and find a way to retrieve the emails. There's also emails from guys who flew the Mediterranean theater, and some from the Pacific. Including the Ploesti P-38 raid, and the massive furball with the Italian planes (one of my friends was able to bag three in that). 

Interesting thing about the P-38K (for those who don't know, it was flown in April of 1943, with 1800+ HP Allison engines, J model intercoolers, and 13'-6" three blade Hamilton Standard hydrostatic High Activity paddle props), despite the War Production Board declining it. It turns out that, a year later, in April/May 1944, when the 8th AF was still trying to get enough fighters, and the best fighters possible, the U.S. Army Air Corps Material Command specifically requested the P-38K be produced and deployed. By that time, it would have likely had four blade props, not the three blade props it was tested with. While dive speed wouldn't be increased, the dive recovery flaps would have been installed.

Thank you for sharing!! I envy you "older" guys that actually were able to talk to WW2 pilots and veterans.  A lot of them were beginning to die out by the time I got old enough to really appreciate them even more.  I did enjoy the section in the book from LeVier's memoirs--I really need to look into him!

I think I have maybe a dozen or so books on the P-38, including a couple on some of the pilots. I have 2-3 on the P-47 as well.

I am open to ALL suggestions.  I want to build a collection of books about WW2 aviation, both planes and pilots!!!  I am a terrible reader, and I know the only way to get better is to keep reading.  All things WW2 are the only things that keep me interested in the books!!

<S>

Josh
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