Poland

[Eagler]

Thanks again rabbidrabbit

I fear the truth is under attack everywhere

Our populous regurgitate what they hear on their favorite television shows blindly here also

To think outside the box is too much for most it seems....easier to swallow it hook line and sinker and get back to their next Facebook post...

Hoping the day talks of peace comes quickly and with it the end of the useless loss of life and property

Stay safe

Eagler

[CptTrips]

Are these news casts at the level of our CNN or is this like a Rachel Maddox level of information?

Your brain is so rotted out by domestic politics that you can't even see the world around you in broad daylight anymore.

If they wanted to stop this war they would

Really?  OK, Eagler.

Don't deflect or try to squirm out of the question.


Tell us exactly how "they" could stop this war if they want?  Without giving Putin Ukraine or large swaths of it?

Go ahead, explain how that would be done?

Or is appeasement your only plan?

[rabbidrabbit]

Thanks again rabbidrabbit

I fear the truth is under attack everywhere

Our populous regurgitate what they hear on their favorite television shows blindly here also

To think outside the box is too much for most it seems....easier to swallow it hook line and sinker and get back to their next Facebook post...

Hoping the day talks of peace comes quickly and with it the end of the useless loss of life and property

Stay safe

Eagler

I agree and the only way that is happening is for that Russian ideology to lose credibility and Russia to give up it's ambitions.  So, the only way this war is ending in the foreseeable future is for that to happen and Russia withdraw.  The Ukes don't have the choice of surrender given Russia's declared intentions.

[Eagler]

Keep putting words in my mouth cap..

I would say assassination is what it boils down to..

Bet we could pay enough for this to happen is we truly wanted it to

Instead we watch Ukraine turn into a smoldering crater we will then throw billions at to rebuild

A country no one here could even locate on a map before 2021..

Eagler

[CptTrips]

I would say assassination is what it boils down to..

That is against US law.  And against our self interest.  Our leaders are easy to assassinate too.

Executive Order 11905, executive order issued February 19, 1976, by U.S. President Gerald Ford, which prohibited any member of the U.S. government from engaging or conspiring to engage in any political assassination anywhere in the world.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Executive-Order-11905


Now what?  Back to plan A?  Appeasement?

Was that the only plan you had?  What is your Nixonian Secret Plan to end the War????

[rabbidrabbit]

Please don't kill this thread too guys.

Here is a response someone else recently made that might help..

" Putin has set the Russians on a course of conquest that he can no longer control; at this point, Putin has no choice but to continue the war.  Any so-called "Peace" agreement would be temporary until the Russians can rearm/refit.  Russia has committed too much of their land power, residual strength, and economic power for Putin or any other leader to back down at this point.  Putin and those around him see this as an existential struggle for national survival, and Russia has already abandoned much of it's advantageous position in Central Asia, it's position vis/vis China, international standing, and it's world trade relationships, etc. to win in Ukraine.  Ukraine, for it's part, requires security; therefore, any since agreement the Russians would sign that they could market as a "victory" would leave Ukraine unacceptable vulnerable when (not "if) the Russians begin the next phase of the war.  The war will not end until the Russians are beaten so badly that there is no acceptable way to continue the war.  Ukraine (and it's neighboring countries) understand this; the closest analogy I can come up with would be the French "Revanchist" policies regarding Alsace-Lorraine from 1871 through the First World War, in which France crippled it's position in Central Europe and ultimately sacrificed an entire generation of young men to regain them."

[CptTrips]

Please don't kill this thread too guys.

Just trying to squeeze one honest answer out of Eagler.

If there is some easy plan to end the war that doesn't just incentivized Putin to go on to Romania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Finland, then I'd sure like to hear it.

I have a plan to end the war tomorrow.  Russia packs up and slithers right back across the border to their own territory.

Does anyone claim that wouldn't end the fighting tomorrow?

THAT is how you end the war.  Not appeasement.

[rabbidrabbit]

THAT is how you end the war.  Not appeasement.

I get what you are doing, I'm pointing out that the methodology tends to get threads locked.

I'm trying to explain that from the Uke perspective, the Russians are doing the very things they are talking about every night on state tv and that gives no good man a choice but to fight until that ideology of Russian society fails to the point where a real peace is possible.  Saying it is up to the US to force the Ukes to surrender before is appeasement in Russian eyes and will likely result in continued Russian aggression.  The narrative is from Russian IO which pushes that talking point to western facing audiences to undermine western support while at the same time they are all in on genociding the Uke population to take back "their" lands. 

[CptTrips]

I get what you are doing, I'm pointing out that the methodology tends to get threads locked.

If being honest locks threads, then lock`em.

Any discussion where you are not allowed to speak honestly isn't worth having anyway.

 There are only two option.

1.  Defeat Russia and turn them back to their borders.

2.  Appeasement.

If someone claims there is a third, the onus is on them to lay it out not just wave their hands and talk about a mythical easy solution.

[GasTeddy]

I have a plan to end the war tomorrow.  Russia packs up and slithers right back across the border to their own territory.

Well, I presume we all agree more or less in that. Question is how to make it happen. I'd be happy to refresh old skills and look at tsar Putain through an optical sight, attached in some .338 Lapua Magnum hardware. Even Executive Order 11905 exists, as it does not effect me. And there are lots of violations against it for sure, just not published.

[Eagler]

I would first ask for representation from both sides to sit down somewhere and start talks

I have no idea what the peace plan would look like at this point..no one honestly does..they know what they think it should be

If it doesn't start - it will never end

I think it's up to Ukraine not the rest of the weapons supplying globe to make that call

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

I would first ask for representation from both sides to sit down somewhere and start talks

I have no idea what the peace plan would look like at this point..no one honestly does..they know what they think it should be

If it doesn't start - it will never end

I think it's up to Ukraine not the rest of the weapons supplying globe to make that call

Eagler

You don't think both sides are fully aware?  They obviously are and so far way from having a serious conversation that neither feel it's worth the effort to continue.  This is a rather naive statement unless I'm missing something.

[CptTrips]

Well, I presume we all agree more or less in that. Question is how to make it happen. I'd be happy to refresh old skills and look at tsar Putain through an optical sight, attached in some .338 Lapua Magnum hardware. Even Executive Order 11905 exists, as it does not effect me. And there are lots of violations against it for sure, just not published.

As a non-US citizen you are of course not bound by our laws.

But I wouldn't bother though.  At some point the Oligarchs who used to enjoy making a lot of money are going to do it for us.  They don't care about the hardliners old Soviet ideas.  They just want to be able to Travel to Caen in their yachts again.

Even if Russia rolls up Ukraine tomorrow and hangs Zelensky, nothing changes.  We simply shift to supporting the Resistance. 
Every Uke collaborator get burned alive with their family the second the Russian column leaves town.  They don't have enough troops to be everywhere simultaneously.
Every granny with a 3rd story window gets a 50 cal sniper rifle to keep in the office. 
Every barn would have a stack of Stingers and Javlins.  Any convoy in the country gets lit.
Every drunk Russian that stumbles out of a cafe to take a whiz ends up with his throat cut. 
Russian commanders are located with our ElInt and marked for the Resistance so they can car bomb them.

It will go on and on and on and on until Russia has had enough and crawls back across the border with it's tail between it's legs.

I was serving at the time and remember watching on the dayroom TV as the last Russian tank rolled back across the bridge from Afghanistan to Mother Russia.  As soon as they got tired of bleeding.

And all that time we continue to crush their economy out of existence.  The sanctions will continue forever until they withdraw.  Sooner or later they will be eating their own infants for food.

https://youtu.be/O-HVcBstudmuffinsw?si=SawotDsfGgkAEssf

The only other option is some species of appeasement.

[GasTeddy]

You don't think both sides are fully aware?  They obviously are and so far way from having a serious conversation that neither feel it's worth the effort to continue.  This is a rather naive statement unless I'm missing something.

You're right. Ukraine demands all its territory back before any negotiations and Putain will not talk before he has all Donbass and Krim officially recognized by international community as parts of russian territory. Catch 22.

 At some point the Oligarchs who used to enjoy making a lot of money are going to do it for us.  They don't care about the hardliners old Soviet ideas.  They just want to be able to Travel to Caen in their yachts again.

This is one possible option. Another one is repeat of 1917, when previous tsar expired. Putains best before date is getting closer.

[Lazerr]

This isn't going to end well either way. 

My hunch is some "freak accident"  comes up, and things go the nuclear route.

Or we stop funding Ukraine and they eventually are overrun.  I don't want that to happen, but I have a lot more interest in my country, family.  How long can you really keep pumping money into it without ANY type of return?