Poland

[CptTrips]

can you provide "nato won't expand" agreement in any form other then "this is what i understood from what you said" ?

No, he can not.

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CI%20was%20in%20those%20meetings,a%20limit%20on%20NATO%20enlargement.

[CptTrips]

We are obviously the world's police even though the majority don't want us to be..

See.  He's warming up to why defend NATO?

[fd ski]

Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east. Can you provide a proof of that or just a link to a movie about guy elected in Ukraine 20 years later ?
How am I supposed to do my own research. If you post something as fact, you need to be able to back it up.
Burden of proof is on you.
I understand that you heard this "fact" in all sorts of videos. Tucker "russian asset" Carlson repeated that enough times. Problem is, it's bullcrap. Can you find a shred of proof or just point to people spreading that stuff ?
 
I'll give you an example how to discuss based on facts:
Budapest memorandum.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
Text: Point 2

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of political independence of Ukraine......

Signed by president of Russian Federation.

Please explain what happened in 2014 and 2022 in context of above.

[artik]

No when I say I want peace I want peace

Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum - Is not getting old for 2K years...

[CptTrips]

Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum - Is not getting old for 2K years...

Indeed.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war."

[CptTrips]

Cui bono?

Man, we all better hope that Russia and China had no possible part in facilitating the Hamas attack.  Obviously there were no Russian or Chinese troops.  But they better hope there are no support traces that can be found.  If we do, we are now in the opening stages of a World War between The Axis of Evil  Russia, China, Iran and their assorted collection of underling scumbags against America and the civilized West.

https://www.youtube.com/live/Cs-eCmLK7O8?si=2iCFlZWd6GsmIJxz

I wonder if at night as Vlad is sprinkling potato chips around his bed so no one can sneak in during the night and slit his throat, if he realizes just what he set in motion with his Ukraine adventure.  May he die in pain and rot in Hell.

[LCADolby]

Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east. Can you provide a proof of that or just a link to a movie about guy elected in Ukraine 20 years later ?

While I don't believe I have specifically said that in this thread, but that's the point you want to jump upon; US secretary of state James Baker made the agreement to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990. That "NATO would not extend past the territory of East Germany". It was repeated by NATO’s secretary general Gesner(?) in a speech in May two months later ("As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."), history within living memory. Go to Wikipedia if you're so inclined, it'll be there I'm not wasting my life doing your homework, I got my A already.

That video points to the Minsk Agreement and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest the significance of you overlooking it.

[LCADolby]

Dolby, you asserted that NATO and Russia had an agreement not to expand east.

I went back over my posts, I did not assert this I only mention the Minsk Agreement But even so I address this in my previous post.. Please gentlemen, would you kindly start making sure you are not making these easy mistakes. You only harm your own arguments when you overlook, put words into others mouths and jump over rushing to get to the "gotcha" part of the discussion.

This sort of nonsense is why I wont be wasting my OSINT on you guys, you'd get banned/blocked in 2 comments. Skuzzy aint nothing compared to those guys.

[CptTrips]

While I don't believe I have specifically said that in this thread, but that's the point you want to jump upon; US secretary of state James Baker made the agreement to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990.

Do you have a written treaty agreeing to that?

Are you just accepting Putin's word?

Others  in the room say different:

I was in those meetings, and Gorbachev has [also] said there was no promise not to enlarge NATO,

https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CI%20was%20in%20those%20meetings,a%20limit%20on%20NATO%20enlargement.

And if it did happen, which it apparently didn't, that agreement was with the Soviet Union which no longer exists.  Treaties Rome signed with the the Celts is Britain in no way apply between the moderns states of Italy and UK.


Putin throwing a fit about his neighbors begging to join NATO is like the Crips and the Blood getting mad people want the join the Neighborhood Watch program to prevent crime. 

[CptTrips]

In the end, however, Gorbachev acknowledged the historical truth. In October 2014, in an interview with
the Russian daily Kommersant , he stated unequivocally that “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was never discussed; it was not raised in those years [1989-1990]. I am saying this with a full sense of responsibility. Not a
single Eastern European country brought up the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist
in 1991. Western heads of state and government, too, did not raise it.

https://www.baks.bund.de/sites/baks010/files/working_paper_2018_03.pdf

[CptTrips]

Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated.

What the Germans, Americans, British and French did agree to in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of non-German NATO forces on the territory of the former GDR.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

Shock.  Putin is lying and the Useful Idiots lap it up.

[GasTeddy]

Also one thing about NATOs expansion; countries join in voluntary basis, they apply membership. NATO does not take members at gunpoint. Lately tsar Putler has been the best possible salesman of applications.

[fd ski]

I went back over my posts, I did not assert this I only mention the Minsk Agreement But even so I address this in my previous post.. Please gentlemen, would you kindly start making sure you are not making these easy mistakes. You only harm your own arguments when you overlook, put words into others mouths and jump over rushing to get to the "gotcha" part of the discussion.

This sort of nonsense is why I wont be wasting my OSINT on you guys, you'd get banned/blocked in 2 comments. Skuzzy aint nothing compared to those guys.

See below:

I hate to say this but peace was already had at the Minsk agreement, ~Nato send in Boris Johnson afterward to torpedo the agreement and cause the war.
Russians are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
While I believe wholeheartedly that there should be no bloodshed, there is war for a reason; Because Nato and Ukraine forced this war breaking its agreements. Nothing can change that fact

Ok, in that case which agreement was NATO breaking did you allude to ? Minsk agreement it wasn't a part of ?

How do you feel about Budapest memorandum being broken by Russia in 2014 well before Minsk Agreement ? Any thoughts on that ?

[LCADolby]

This took 2 seconds, is some Mandela Effect weirdness going on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion

Under Historical context;
"Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"

[GasTeddy]

This took 2 seconds, is some Mandela Effect weirdness going on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion

Under Historical context;
"Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"

Wasn't Wikipedia exactly something not to trust? Is there some kind of IRA Olgino effect going on?

What you linked, that's verbally said, just like I wrote in one of my earlier messages. Where is signed agreement, contract, something like that? Politics do not work with verbal intentions, things have to be put on paper and signed by not intentions but agreeing participants. Even though, especially tsar Putler has shown he respects them as much as used toilet paper.

Let's then go to the meaning of word "intentions"; NATO has no intentions. An intention is idea that you plan (or intend) to carry out. If you mean something, it's an intention. Your goal, purpose, or aim is your intention. It's something you mean to do, whether you pull it off or not. You are clearly mixing words "intention" and "promise". They are two different words with different meanings. Nobody has said NATO has promised not to expand to east.

So, no intention means they do not plan it, but many things happen without planning. Tsar Putler made things happen by his intentions, which were to make neighbors his puppets. And that created actions, not just intentions. Actions totally opposite of his plans and that seems to seriously disturb his supporters.