Author Topic: What would get AH growing again  (Read 3570 times)

Offline Animl-AW

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3191
      • Aces High Tech Hangar
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2024, 06:06:22 PM »
The game is too far behind to live in sweat equity. If AH were to come back and be a viable player in the market it would take lots of money and lots of people willing to take less of it.

IMO, total overhaul, like AW, is prolly out of reach. I don’t see into competing with modern games, but be better than current state in comparison to graphics. We already have best game play.  Graphics is #1. They are good, I’m ok with it, its making it better to draw again. 300 in MA is a vast change.

This thread is why any changes are discussed behind closed doors. As soon as the word “update” appears the wishlist explodes way outside intensions. The list becomes infinite, literally., pushing it out of reach.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2024, 06:11:34 PM by Animl-AW »

Offline Max

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7766
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2024, 06:09:29 PM »
Graphics improvement, new planes and vehicles, regular updates to game engine. :aok

So kinda like back in the day when Dale & Doug were actively involved with development?

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6655
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2024, 06:10:27 PM »
Why do we need more planes and vehicles when 90% of the arena only flies in 5 planes and 1 tank  :rofl

Graphics don't matter. It's about engagement. Are you keep player enganged? If they get bored twiddling their thumbs for too long, they will leave. It's that simple.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2024, 06:12:00 PM by DmonSlyr »
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline Animl-AW

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3191
      • Aces High Tech Hangar
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2024, 06:13:51 PM »
Why do we need more planes and vehicles and when 90% of the arena only flies in 5 planes and 1 tank  :rofl

Graphics don't matter. It's about engagement. Are you keep player enganged? If they get bored twiddling their thumbs for too long, they will leave. It's that simple.

New planes and vehicles prolly will not happen. Here we are talking about something that might help then slipping into darkness of complete overhaul, its not going to happen IMO.

Offline SuperDud

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4587
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2024, 07:20:52 PM »
War Thunder is ALL about the modern fighters today mostly SuperDud. Plus most of the matches you get in like Realistic have time limits to complete the mission. I rather take as much time as I can without being limited to a time limit. What if I want to fly a Heavy Bomber like a B-17? You get slaughtered by ME-262s HO-229s and most of the early jets that have heavy cannon. Alongside that you can't even have a formation of 3 and you can only bomb the bases and there isn't even a realistic battle setup where the city or a strategic target can be bombed by the bombers. I quit playing WT due to players never helping and some of the premium vehicles they have which just slaughter your teammates and ruins the experience.

That's all well and true, but it doesn't change my point. No one is going to pay $15 a month for a game with cruddy graphics and very low population most of the day.

You have to change your pay model and update your graphics. Outside of war thunder there's also IL2 and and DCS that offer some form of multi-player and doesn't require a monthly payment.

You might say they can't/don't have as many players in one arena but by the sound of it, at most hours they are similar to those games.
SuperDud
++Blue Knights++

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8576
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2024, 03:55:24 AM »
No one is going to pay $15 a month for a game with cruddy graphics and very low population most of the day.

No one? Many players have done so for many, many years because the flight modelling is the best and you're free to pitch whatever aircraft and tactics you wish - arena disposition permitting - against potentially massive amounts of or at least hugely-varied human players. That's unique.


I notice all the other growing games are A V A and without Icons...

I hardly think a sensible stratergy is to try to force AH into a poorer replication of more recent games. They have their strengths and weaknesses the same as AH. Nor do I think it's a particularly good idea to chase the younger and more fickle ego-centric gamers. AH has appeal to other people. A couple of points which might not occur for various reasons:-

NONE of the present flight sim offerings have yet, nor likely will last as long as AH has. Doubly so if you include AH1 and 2's predecessor. There is clearly a special sauce in there somewhere, the longevity is nothing short of remarkable and seldom is acknowledged. By now this game should fairly have a cult and legendary status. Yet you see hardly a mention because it's age and design-decisions are not in alignment with recent offerings. Why must everything pander. Some things are what they are.

At the time of the Steam launch I volunteered to help HiTech with some design work and was shared certain confidences which were pertinant to that work (and not mine to share further). Suffice to say many forum members seem to have been confusing causation with corellation for years now and have been taking that failure to revamp the player-base as some kind of evidence there's something wrong with the core of the game. The primary reason prospective players did not stick around had nothing to do at all with the core game nor the subscription model. Couldn't possible be any meaningful inference made about that from this release. Let's just say it was a sort of highly off-putting user-interface issue for those who had not given flight-sims a good go.

If I were chief advisor in charge of game architecture, future policy, whiskey-rationing and that little gravelley patch behind the outside toilet (which I'm not), I'd suggest a half year revamp, a consequential launch of AH4 on Steam with revisions to the user interface and certainly an some HTC-hosted human-populated alternative arena to the MA. The MA is a very peculiar place to those who have not spent a long time here. That's hard to empathise with by all of us who have, well, spent a long time here. It compromises all of our suggestions about revitalising the game. We all also speak from our preferences from years of gameplay. Maybe a rolling AvA (amongst other things) also offered. But not ONLY offered.

Regarding graphics, there are still people playing Counterstrike (the old one) and other similar games. The question is not whether the graphics are fantastic eye-candy replete with wow-factor but rather are they fit for purpose which IMHO is to give you sufficient immesrion to enjoy the actual activity of the game. For me it's perfectly good enough. Also there is advantage in that, wihout 72-layers of ray-traced sundogs and reflections your PC requirements also let you reach a more general, non-gamer and likely more mature demographic.

Finaly a word about the Dale God Entity. I don't have it, but by all accounts he has knocked the ball out of the park with VR compared to other well-staffed snd well-funded games. And it's not the first time, his patented net-lag code is the backbone to which this truly only MMOG flight sim hangs. I think he's a tiny bit autistic-savant (sorry Dale if I'm wrong or offend, to me there's no offence in such a gift), and I think he works best with people who have an alternate set of skills for balance - shall we say. If employees are out of reach then if I were him I'd be asking people like Lusche to help in addition to some user-interface specialists and so on. If nothing else a periodical reality-check with others about design propositions would really be beneficial.

Parallel arenas should definately be run and experimented with. Fiddling with the MA drastically will turn the lights off right-quick IMHO. Flight simming is a tiny subset withon a tiny subset, with obvious limits because of that. Driving simulators have a much wider base of interest but now you need thousands of $ to get competitive equipment. Not so here and that's largely thanks to Dale and his flight model.

Just my 20-cents  :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Animl-AW

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3191
      • Aces High Tech Hangar
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2024, 08:34:45 AM »
No one? Many players have done so for many, many years because the flight modelling is the best and you're free to pitch whatever aircraft and tactics you wish - arena disposition permitting - against potentially massive amounts of or at least hugely-varied human players. That's unique.


I hardly think a sensible stratergy is to try to force AH into a poorer replication of more recent games. They have their strengths and weaknesses the same as AH. Nor do I think it's a particularly good idea to chase the younger and more fickle ego-centric gamers. AH has appeal to other people. A couple of points which might not occur for various reasons:-

NONE of the present flight sim offerings have yet, nor likely will last as long as AH has. Doubly so if you include AH1 and 2's predecessor. There is clearly a special sauce in there somewhere, the longevity is nothing short of remarkable and seldom is acknowledged. By now this game should fairly have a cult and legendary status. Yet you see hardly a mention because it's age and design-decisions are not in alignment with recent offerings. Why must everything pander. Some things are what they are.

At the time of the Steam launch I volunteered to help HiTech with some design work and was shared certain confidences which were pertinant to that work (and not mine to share further). Suffice to say many forum members seem to have been confusing causation with corellation for years now and have been taking that failure to revamp the player-base as some kind of evidence there's something wrong with the core of the game. The primary reason prospective players did not stick around had nothing to do at all with the core game nor the subscription model. Couldn't possible be any meaningful inference made about that from this release. Let's just say it was a sort of highly off-putting user-interface issue for those who had not given flight-sims a good go.

If I were chief advisor in charge of game architecture, future policy, whiskey-rationing and that little gravelley patch behind the outside toilet (which I'm not), I'd suggest a half year revamp, a consequential launch of AH4 on Steam with revisions to the user interface and certainly an some HTC-hosted human-populated alternative arena to the MA. The MA is a very peculiar place to those who have not spent a long time here. That's hard to empathise with by all of us who have, well, spent a long time here. It compromises all of our suggestions about revitalising the game. We all also speak from our preferences from years of gameplay. Maybe a rolling AvA (amongst other things) also offered. But not ONLY offered.

Regarding graphics, there are still people playing Counterstrike (the old one) and other similar games. The question is not whether the graphics are fantastic eye-candy replete with wow-factor but rather are they fit for purpose which IMHO is to give you sufficient immesrion to enjoy the actual activity of the game. For me it's perfectly good enough. Also there is advantage in that, wihout 72-layers of ray-traced sundogs and reflections your PC requirements also let you reach a more general, non-gamer and likely more mature demographic.

Finaly a word about the Dale God Entity. I don't have it, but by all accounts he has knocked the ball out of the park with VR compared to other well-staffed snd well-funded games. And it's not the first time, his patented net-lag code is the backbone to which this truly only MMOG flight sim hangs. I think he's a tiny bit autistic-savant (sorry Dale if I'm wrong or offend, to me there's no offence in such a gift), and I think he works best with people who have an alternate set of skills for balance - shall we say. If employees are out of reach then if I were him I'd be asking people like Lusche to help in addition to some user-interface specialists and so on. If nothing else a periodical reality-check with others about design propositions would really be beneficial.

Parallel arenas should definately be run and experimented with. Fiddling with the MA drastically will turn the lights off right-quick IMHO. Flight simming is a tiny subset withon a tiny subset, with obvious limits because of that. Driving simulators have a much wider base of interest but now you need thousands of $ to get competitive equipment. Not so here and that's largely thanks to Dale and his flight model.

Just my 20-cents  :salute

+2

<golf clap>

Offline TWCAxew

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2024, 09:04:59 AM »
My 2 cents.

Graphics that are competing with other games.

No sub, people hate it. Wow gets away with it cuz people are addicted.

The gameplay is fine as is.
DutchVII / ULDutch
~~2019 KOTH/TOC Champion~~
https://ahevents.net/index.php/events/scenarios/about-scenarios
4 time scenario C.O. ~ As dew appears, As dew Vanishes, Such is my life, Everything in this world, Is but a dream within a dream.

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27068
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2024, 09:05:01 AM »
People on the other games get scenic graphics to fly around in by themselves. Free? Not really.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Kini

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 84
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2024, 09:08:42 AM »
That's all well and true, but it doesn't change my point. No one is going to pay $15 a month for a game with cruddy graphics and very low population most of the day.

You have to change your pay model and update your graphics. Outside of war thunder there's also IL2 and and DCS that offer some form of multi-player and doesn't require a monthly payment.

You might say they can't/don't have as many players in one arena but by the sound of it, at most hours they are similar to those games.

Just lots of micro transactions (real money) for later versions of vehicles, updated weapons, cammo. I saw a set up that wanted me to buy and pay for my flight crew. I'll stick with everything with a monthly subscription.

Offline Animl-AW

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3191
      • Aces High Tech Hangar
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2024, 09:25:31 AM »
Just lots of micro transactions (real money) for later versions of vehicles, updated weapons, cammo. I saw a set up that wanted me to buy and pay for my flight crew. I'll stick with everything with a monthly subscription.

Players who think they are saving money per year playing these other games are not saving money, they are paying more by items they buy. In some cases dbl or tripling their cost.

Offline Yarbles

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6089
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2024, 09:55:45 AM »
 
There has to be a revenue stream.

Its still not clear to me why there used to be 4000 plus subs and now about 500 ?

Maybe its the juveniles and teenagers which we probably don't miss squeaking away on vox ?

DFC/GFC/OAP



"Don't get into arguments with idiots, they drag you down to their level and then win from experience"
"He who can laugh at himself has mastered himself"

Online The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2024, 10:40:10 AM »

There has to be a revenue stream.

Its still not clear to me why there used to be 4000 plus subs and now about 500 ?

Maybe its the juveniles and teenagers which we probably don't miss squeaking away on vox ?

A lot of things added to the decline in numbers. AH2 to AH3 knocked a bunch of players out because they couldnt/wouldnt upgrade their computers (had they they could still be playing the game today as not much has changed to warrant big upgrades). When the "Speed Trees" was added e lost a lot of GV guys as they couldnt do those long range shots any more. Other games started up pulling some players away. Radar changes, Life, some players got married and had a family and just didnt have the time, or those "squeakers" went off to collage and got into girls instead of games. And the other side of life, death. We lost a lot of the old guys along with some during covid that werent so old.

Here is one of Lusche's graphs showing the population in game based of at least one kill.....



Oboe did an overlay to point out some of the events at different times so you can see that out come in the game numbers.

No one thing knocked the numbers down, but a combination of things. I think a combination of things will need to change to bring the numbers back up. "Graphics" and "Advertising" are the first two things that always come out in these type of threads. You crunch the numbers with a bunch of estimates (only Hitech knows the real numbers) and it is easy to see that there isnt really any money to bring in the people needed to do an over hall of the game or run a big advertising blitz, but there are ways to cut corners.

Graphics, Everyone wants "eyecandy". The game is always compared with IL2 and DSC for graphics and found wanting by many. I and others here dont find the graphics that bad. Maybe its because we are old and just cant see the fancy stuff any way. In a fight you have closing rates over 400 MPH, how much detail can you pick out on the other plane? So planes are ok, maybe an interior art tweak, a bit more fidelity to the cockpits. Those are just art files. With the awesome art our skinners do maybe a few of them would like to start working their way through the cockpits. They have shown they are skilled, and so far they work at a great rate  ;)

Speed trees looks to have more options than what we are using, is that an option to tweak the terrain as seen both from the sky and the ground?

Animal pointed out that he has messed around with explosions video, can he be brought in to help out with adding/switching out some of the old animations? Are there others that are willing to help out?

Advertising, a big money ticket and a gamble. Lay out a bunch of money for ads, but if it doesnt return enough revenue you have wasted a bunch of money. Thats why I think a rebranding/restart on Steam could help. I dont think it costs as much as ads, but it could still reach a lot of people. With the rest of us hitting Steam for the interest, or chats it could push the algorithms to put AH out there in front of more players.

I wish Hitech would chime in on these discussions like he use to in the old days. Would he be open to volunteer helpers? What hurdles would have to be jumped to be able to help ...NDAs, program purchases and so on?

The game doesnt need to go back to its hey day in the early 2000s.. though Im sure Hitechs pockets wouldnt mind.... but if the numbers doubled it would make the game a presents in the filght sim world again.

Offline JimmyD3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3970
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2024, 11:16:00 AM »
Over the last 15 months, I have had the privilege of meeting and getting to know Hitech, face to face. He is an amazing guy, friendly, easy to talk to. He has been through a tough 2 years, what with the divorce, and then the Ascending Aortic Aneurysm surgery a year ago this last May.

I have been working with Hitech and Easyscor for the last 3 months, investigating the "GV Building Access" glitch. We have determined what was allowing the access, and have developed a fix. Changes have been made to the appropriate Terrset Speed Tree files, at this point these files need to be verified by Hitech and implemented as time permits.

There are other efforts I believe would help the game. While there maybe some "suspicious" game play by a few players, by in large I don't believe it is an issue. What IS an issue, is players screaming "cheat" on VOX or 200, when they don't know or understand how they were killed. And yes I am just as guilty as the next person on that. But it does a dis-service to the game, and it drives new players away. For sure no one wants to pay a subscription to a game, that has cheaters.

I am not nears as eloquent or coherent as Nrshida or Fugitive, but both have pointed out some real life facts and I think overall they have summed it up pretty well.

Well I'm starting to ramble, time to shut up. I love this game and hope to see it around for many years to come.  :salute
Kenai77
CO Sic Puppies MWK
USAF 1971-76

Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10165
Re: What would get AH growing again
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2024, 11:18:36 AM »
So kinda like back in the day when Dale & Doug were actively involved with development?
:aok
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!