Author Topic: ww2  (Read 782 times)

Offline Yarbles

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ww2
« on: March 25, 2025, 11:57:23 AM »
I am not sure if this is politics now as it was 70 years ago so I will call it history.

Just finished reading a book about the fall of France in 1940 and its aftermath.

Do people in the USA think that would have been the time to declare war on Germany rather than wait until Germany declared war on the USA in December 1941 ?

From my own perspective Britain and France went to war over Poland which was probably not a smart move strategically but without actually being at war it is very hard to fully mobilise in a democracy. If Britain had not gone to war over Poland, Germany would have eventually invaded the Soviet Union and that would have been the ideal time to join the fight but it would have been hard to do that without the massive re armament only war in a democracy supplies.

I would suggest unlike most of its allies the USA remains now permanently ready for war and so ensures peace. This is a lesson in Europe we have failed to learn.

As you may have guessed I am like your president surprised how much Europe currently and historically thinks it is ok to rely on the USA for its security some smaller nations particularly having virtually no military. NATO membership in my opinion should be contingent on matching USA levels of per capita defence expenditure.

 

« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 12:10:45 PM by Yarbles »
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Offline GOODBYE

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Re: ww2
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2025, 12:07:33 PM »
American citizens did not want to join the war and felt the war in Europe was just that, a war in Europe. I don’t think the U.S. would’ve declared a formal war until Germany committed a true attack on American soil. Seems like we handled the war then just like we are now with other countries, send equipment to help and maybe a drop a missile here or there

Offline Yarbles

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Re: ww2
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2025, 12:15:49 PM »
American citizens did not want to join the war and felt the war in Europe was just that, a war in Europe. I don’t think the U.S. would’ve declared a formal war until Germany committed a true attack on American soil. Seems like we handled the war then just like we are now with other countries, send equipment to help and maybe a drop a missile here or there

I have read though that there was a clear concern in government that Germany might create sympathetic fascist states in south America soon after the fall of France. France prior to the German invasion was considered the strongest army in the world.

The fall of France was a massive geo political shock to the sense of the world order. In a sense a huge confidence trick on Germanies behalf as it only had 10 truly modern mechanised divisions which were the spear head the other 80 or so relying on horses for transport. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 12:18:57 PM by Yarbles »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: ww2
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2025, 12:30:31 PM »
Just finished reading a book about the fall of France in 1940 and its aftermath.

Which book?

- oldman

Offline Yarbles

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Re: ww2
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2025, 12:55:43 PM »
Which book?

- oldman

"When France Fell"

Michael S Neiberg    I have to admit I listened to it as an Audio Book through Audible but it does allow me to digest a book a week while going about chores etc

I recommend it

£6.99 per month incredible value and free for the first 3 months I think. (I don't have shares in the company) My main interest is WW2 history military and political. I would advise anyone to try it. Sitting down with a book is unlikely but doing stuff around the house or driving and its easy to digest a 20 hour book a week.

There are books about all the major campaigns in WW2. Midway, The Pacific in general, The Ardennes, Normandy etc and many are free within the £6.99 basic subscription but you get one free book from the non free catalogue a MONTH. There are also interesting fictional alternative history novels.   

From my perspective very interesting to see how the UK as the Major maritime and world power was succeeded by the USA in WW2.

btw from a European perspective Biden was very comforting to the European mentality but I believe on the World Stage now Trump is exactly what we need.   

Domesticly that is your business.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 01:18:05 PM by Yarbles »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: ww2
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2025, 03:09:47 PM »
 I have never used audio books before. I jave listened to some YouTube videos on WWII that worked very well. Usually naval and naval air. A few of those tubers are good speakers.
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Offline Busher

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Re: ww2
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2025, 05:31:10 PM »


From my own perspective Britain and France went to war over Poland



I might have reacted more favorably to this statement had you included the contributions of Canada, South Africa and Australia. The Battle of Britain was over while the USA was still thinking Japan was a pal. The Americans would tell you that they won the war against Germany... I suggest that they only shortened the time to VE day.
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: ww2
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2025, 06:07:12 PM »
I might have reacted more favorably to this statement had you included the contributions of Canada, South Africa and Australia. The Battle of Britain was over while the USA was still thinking Japan was a pal. The Americans would tell you that they won the war against Germany... I suggest that they only shortened the time to VE day.

Good point about the commonwealth nations  :salute
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Offline Molsman

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Re: ww2
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2025, 09:05:16 PM »
I know we had pilots volunteer to help with the Battle of Britain before the US even thought about entering WW2. We didn’t actually enter until Japan attacked us when they hit Pearl Harbor. I forget the Movie I watched where Americans went over to fly spitfire’s. I think the same thing also happened in WW1 where pilots went to fight that movie was FlyBoys. But I could be wrong
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Offline Badboy

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Re: ww2
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2025, 09:20:51 PM »
I appreciate that question was targeted at Americans but speculation can be fun and I've just finished my second cup of coffee and have nothing better to do until lunch so here is my take on it anyway.

Background
In 1939, Britain faced a growing threat from Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler. Hitler had already annexed Austria and parts of Czechoslovakia, and his expansionist goals were clear. Poland, situated between Germany and the Soviet Union, was an important target for Hitler. Britain, along with France, wanted to prevent Nazi domination of Europe and maintain the balance of power. This led to the formation of the Anglo-Polish Military Alliance.

The treaty was not based on the long-standing friendship between Britain and Poland but on strategic necessity. Britain needed to ensure that Poland didn’t fall under German control, as that would have significantly strengthened Hitler's position in Europe.

Why Did Britain Enter the Treaty?
  • Preventing Nazi Expansion: By 1939, Germany’s expansion was clear. Britain saw Poland as a buffer and key to stopping further German aggression. The treaty promised that Britain would defend Poland if it was attacked by Germany.
  • Failure of Appeasement: The policy of appeasement had failed to stop Germany. After the Munich Agreement (1938), it became clear that Hitler’s goals were much broader than Britain had anticipated. The invasion of Czechoslovakia showed Britain that Germany was not content with small territorial gains.
  • Maintaining European Stability: Britain’s involvement in the treaty showed its commitment to upholding the post-World War I order and preventing the collapse of Europe into a Nazi-controlled continent. Britain understood that letting Germany take Poland would leave it exposed.
  • Strengthening Alliances: Britain’s alliance with Poland was also meant to show France and the Soviet Union that Britain was serious about resisting German expansion. If Britain had failed to act, it risked losing credibility with these allies.

How Did Britain Benefit?
  • Moral and Political Commitment: By entering into a treaty, Britain was making a clear commitment to stop Germany, and this was something that could not easily be dismissed by Germany or the rest of Europe.
  • Prevention of German Dominance: The treaty was Britain’s way of trying to contain Germany without letting it become too strong. If Germany had taken Poland, it would have dominated much of Eastern Europe, further threatening Britain’s security and influence.
  • Deterrence: The treaty sent a signal to Germany that Britain would not allow Nazi aggression to go unchecked. While it was a defensive measure, it was a necessary one to prevent the war from being fought on Britain’s shores.
  • Coordination with Allies: By formalizing the commitment to Poland, Britain strengthened its alliances, particularly with France, who had a similar pact with Poland. This helped create a stronger front against Germany.

Why Speculation Is Difficult
  • Logistical and Military Challenges: Even if the U.S. had entered the war earlier, in 1940 its military was not yet ready for a large-scale conflict. The U.S. was still recovering from the Great Depression, and it took time for its military to mobilize.
  • Public Opinion and Isolationism: The U.S. had a strong isolationist sentiment after World War I. Most Americans didn’t want to get involved in another European war. President Roosevelt’s efforts to support Britain through the Lend-Lease Act were already controversial, and asking the public to support a full military engagement would have been difficult.
  • Germany's Military Advantage: In 1940, Germany’s military was highly effective, with quick victories using blitzkrieg tactics. Even if the U.S. had intervened earlier, it’s unclear if the outcome would have been drastically different, especially considering that Britain was fighting alone in the early stages.

What Might Have Happened?
  • Support for Britain: If the U.S. had entered the war after the fall of France, Britain would have received immediate military support. This could have sped up the process of preparing for a counter-offensive, though Britain still faced significant challenges defending itself.
  • Impact on the War in the Pacific: A focus on Europe would have meant less attention on Japan in the Pacific. However, Japan’s own expansionist policies would likely have drawn the U.S. into conflict with Japan eventually.
  • Germany's Strategy: If the U.S. had entered earlier, it might have forced Germany to fight on multiple fronts sooner. However, the German strategy of rapid, aggressive warfare (blitzkrieg) might still have proven effective for a while, especially against unprepared forces.
  • Soviet Union's Role: An earlier U.S. entry would have likely changed the timing and nature of U.S. support for the Soviet Union after they were drawn into the war by Germany's invasion in 1941, impacting their ability to resist the German forces. This, in turn, could have affected the post-war relationship between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, potentially altering the course of the Cold War that developed in the following decades.

Conclusion:
While it’s intriguing to imagine what could have happened if the U.S. entered the war after the fall of France, it’s unlikely that the outcome would have been vastly different. History unfolded the way it did due to a series of interconnected decisions. The U.S. was not ready for war in 1940, and its entry was primarily forced by events, such as the Pearl Harbour attack in December 1941. The combination of military, political, and public factors meant that earlier involvement was not a realistic possibility.

Lastly, speculating about an alternate history where the U.S. entered earlier will always overlook many of the complexities of the situation. The world was moving toward war, and while different choices could have been made, the timing and course of the war were shaped by forces beyond anyone’s control.

Just my take on the question.
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: ww2
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2025, 12:26:13 PM »
I think it is reasonable to suggest we are facing in Putin's Russia another aggressor with territorial ambitions. One that plays on Nationalistic emotions and the idea of ethnic Russians being rescued from persecution.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: ww2
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2025, 12:51:44 PM »
I think it is reasonable to suggest we are facing in Putin's Russia another aggressor with territorial ambitions. One that plays on Nationalistic emotions and the idea of ethnic Russians being rescued from persecution.

My guess is Russia will be happy with whatever becomes the final peace plan and their aggression is over for the foreseeable future...their populous is just as war weary as the rest of us..

But feel free to continue with the global ambition paranoia...

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« Last Edit: March 26, 2025, 01:23:58 PM by Eagler »
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: ww2
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2025, 01:02:45 PM »
My guess is Russia will be happy with whatever becomes the final peace plan and their aggression is over for the foreseeable future...their populous is just as war weary as the rest of us..

But feel free to continue with the global ambition paranoia...

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My concern there is not about what the populous feel about war as much as what keeps the ruling elite in power. The overwhelming sentiment in Germany after the fall of France was that the war was over but it wasn't. There is a kind of gentlemens agreement even in the democracies that once troops are deployed even the independent media and politicians get behind "our boys". War tends to align a populace and justify repression of decent.

We saw it in The Falklands here and everywhere in the subsequent middle eastern conflicts.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: ww2
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2025, 01:23:38 PM »
Middle East is its own incubator of hate and death

War is too profitable so we'll always find an excuse to have one..or two..or more..direct or indirectly

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: ww2
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2025, 09:37:32 AM »
I know we had pilots volunteer to help with the Battle of Britain before the US even thought about entering WW2. We didn’t actually enter until Japan attacked us when they hit Pearl Harbor. I forget the Movie I watched where Americans went over to fly spitfire’s. I think the same thing also happened in WW1 where pilots went to fight that movie was FlyBoys. But I could be wrong

Even though Britain was mostly dependent on shipments of supplies from the US before the US became militarily involved.

If Japan had not attacked the US, D Day may never have happened.
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