IL2 Korea pre-release

[LCADolby]

DCS is probably one of the most realistic to a trained pilot.

I find AcesHigh more realistic than DCS. Especially post stall.

[CptTrips]

IL2 Korea is not full fidelity which sucks.

By full-fidelity do you mean FM or clicky cockpit?

I can live without clicky cockpit. It's neat but most stuff I use regular I map to stick or VA.

If they skimp on the FM they are dead to me.

[CptTrips]

I find AcesHigh more realistic than DCS. Especially post stall.

Not challenging you, but in what way?

I don't know what it is about the DCS warbird FM that hooked me.  It's just the feel.

I know AH, IL2, hell even WT have better "gameplay", but I just wouldn't enjoy the ride as much.  And now that I've gotten used to it, I don't mind the engine mgt.  It just increases the levels of complexity deliciously.  It doesn't need clicky cockpit, but be mappable and have an effect you have to consider. 

I'm hoping CP will match the feel.  I'm happy to give my money to any company that can match that.

[AKIron]

In the prop planes you will drop a wing without much warning in DCS. Recover and gain speed before pulling again or it will fall again immediately. Other sims I've played seem more forgiving in this aspect.

[Animl-AW]

Morning coffee rant

Hmmm
“Forgiving”

It may be that making the plane mire realistic with things like engine management, or “clicky cockpits” may in fact harming the young crowd to take our place in the genre and keep it thriving.

I think this is where AH did it right in the game part to not over-complicate to be more forgiving to new players who aren’t as knowledgeable in flight and management.

I’m curious if when things got more complicated is when our younger generation and replacements started dropping across the board of the genre.

Go from sim to sim and look at the most common age. My guess is the drop coincides with the growing complexity.

Compare sims like DCS with WT which is more inclusive to the younger crowd who have interest yet little experience. My guess is WT probably has the younger crowd we all need to continue the genre.

I think the neat complexity of some sims has run its route.

My guess, while DCS SEEMS to appeal to the older crowd its not producing our younger replacements.

I think AH biggest road block is promotions, it has become a hidden secrete. It could play a bigger role in helping preserve the genre if they knew it was here. Subs is an offset compared new games. But, I don’t see these free type games making any major advancements either, besides the modern 3D engines.

It could be IL-2 Korea was more an act of desperation. I don’t think it will appeal much to non-Russian players. It may be their big mistake and waste of resources.

DCS desperation was rushing planes off the production line before they were done and they could afford them. Which IMO exposed more bugs to players and a turn-off on top of complexity.

Now that those other sims have run their course and their peak is over and could be a good window to push AH really hard. Its such a stable sim. The list of bugs is very short. Wuth all its claimed drudgery and nit picking we have the best community.Almost everyone is willing to help new players.

One of those I watch and observe is 14 yr old ceevee. I want to know what drives him to be with us old timers. I want to capitalize on what draws players like him. We have others recently in their 20s and 30s. I don’t want to know what we want, that is established. IMO our focus should study what drives the younger crowd. We need to close that generation gap.

Is being “more forgiving” the key to focus on?

It may be forming a promotional round table group in a private forum could get us all on the same page to define one voice one easy message.

[LCADolby]

Not challenging you, but in what way?

I've sat some seat time in a Cessna 152 Aerobat.

In AH if the same aircraft was modeled I could almost 100% guarantee I could fly it the same way.

If it was in DCS or IL2 I would expect it to take me time to adjust to it stalling a wing mis-timed, vague controls and a pig to recover.

The aircraft handling like a " bigtoe" slow doesn't make it real..

[AKIron]

I've flown single engine Cessnas and Pipers but not anything else. Those planes are designed to be forgiving. High performance fighters are not. Of course you get a lot of feedback flying a real plane that you don't get in a sim. I may have felt that departure from flight approaching and not been surprised when a wing dropped irl.

[hazmatt]

I'm pretty sure comparing the flight models of most of the planes flying today would not give somebody the ability determine the accuracy of the flight model of these planes as they were a very different kind of bird. I've ready many books written by world war II fighter pilots and I base the flight modeling of a sim on what they have said about the performance of the actual planes.

Examples:
The wing drop, unrecoverable spin of early F4U models.
Early spitfires aileron reversal at high speeds.
Early hurricanes wooden propeller disintegration at high speed. (I read an interesting book where the pilot talked about this happening while fighting the Germans over France)
Early FW190s with aileron flutter with the high speed snap like roll.
Most of the 109 models would overheat right quick on the ground at normal outside temps. You couldn't just sit there idling.
Many of the engines of the era that didn't have the automatic controls could be damaged right quick if you firewalled the throttles while the mixture was still lean.
The early 262s would flame out or worse if you moved the throttle too quickly.
Many weapons were prone to jamming under certain circumstances.

I enjoy these kinds of challenges as I feel it to be more immersive and lets me feel the frustration of guns jamming when you're on about about to dispatch some enemy.

I also like the games without the icons. The other night I was knocking down plane after plane in WT Sim Battles by flowing low on the deck so I wouldn't be silhouetted against the sky and zooming up from the low 6 on enemy planes I saw silhouetted against the sky. I was also flying without tracers and flying like Hartmann. I did run into some trouble one time when I got a spit and his two buddies that I didn't see got me.

I've been surprised at the detail in some sims and the lack in others. WWII online for example modeled the aileron reversal on the spitfires back in the day. I'm not sure if they still do because they nerfed a bunch of the modeling due to complains by people who couldn't manage it.

That said each sim has it's plusses and minuses. To me the giant furalls in AH3 back in the day was some of the most fun I've ever had. I guess that was the golden age as I've not seen it replicated yet.

[Animl-AW]

Thats fine.

Remember, every written word is subject to interpretation.

Unless one has actually done it, it’s suggestive imagination.

In my former occupation, before it was a college course, you sank or swam based on experience and your end product.

Now days we have green horns coming into the live sound world, who just graduated a Audio college course. They read every book, great grades on test, yet not one minute of experience. They come under the notion that they are instantly top shelf because they passed a college course and we didn’t. They think they will soon be on the cover of Live Sound magazine next month. Typical charged green horn. He read it, therefore he knows it.

They have zero experience how to work as a sound crew as a team, no experience behind a massive console.yet they get assigned to my crew, start talking component model numbers and book theories, don’t know how to cable a system, don’t know hiw to hang 5k-8klbs of speakers on chain motors, cannot fix a cable gone bad, never properly packed a semi-truck, don’t kniw how to properly distribute 220v AC, and telling us vets how it should be. By god they read it in a book.

This is when I pull them aside and say “what do you have for experience?”. They proudly say “2-4 yrs college”. And my always return is “you go to that window, open it, and throw that book as hard as you can, because that does not apply here in live sound, here is where you learn, right now you just have an idea”.

Worse, some chief puts him behind a console and we find out the hard way he can’t mix a milkshake.

Reading is good
Learning interest is good
Know all you can is great

It will never ever beat experience.
And I mean that with good intent.

My dad was WWII AF
I flew as passenger in many jets
As a kid who spent time on a farm ROAD in a crop duster several times
My dad took us to the local airport every Sunday after church.
Getting a failed grade in HS I ruined my parents getting me a pilot’s license at 17.

There is zero chance I would ever lecture what is the realistic FM. Only a pilot can tell me and thats up to interpretation.

Same boat WITH you and most.

So for me, its what has convinced me its right and “game-play”.

It was GREAT to have WWII pilots help them/us with AW FM.
But even more better, a pilot from the same group wrote this one .

As long as it doesn’t feel wonky I’m good with it. “Forgiving” is for the inexperienced in a game.

I think longevity comes down to game-play, and driving interest in the younger crowd to sustain it.

It’s all good. We just look at things differently, for some, many things.

[DmonSlyr]

I'm pretty sure comparing the flight models of most of the planes flying today would not give somebody the ability determine the accuracy of the flight model of these planes as they were a very different kind of bird. I've ready many books written by world war II fighter pilots and I base the flight modeling of a sim on what they have said about the performance of the actual planes.

Examples:
The wing drop, unrecoverable spin of early F4U models.
Early spitfires aileron reversal at high speeds.
Early hurricanes wooden propeller disintegration at high speed. (I read an interesting book where the pilot talked about this happening while fighting the Germans over France)
Early FW190s with aileron flutter with the high speed snap like roll.
Most of the 109 models would overheat right quick on the ground at normal outside temps. You couldn't just sit there idling.
Many of the engines of the era that didn't have the automatic controls could be damaged right quick if you firewalled the throttles while the mixture was still lean.
The early 262s would flame out or worse if you moved the throttle too quickly.
Many weapons were prone to jamming under certain circumstances.

I enjoy these kinds of challenges as I feel it to be more immersive and lets me feel the frustration of guns jamming when you're on about about to dispatch some enemy.

I also like the games without the icons. The other night I was knocking down plane after plane in WT Sim Battles by flowing low on the deck so I wouldn't be silhouetted against the sky and zooming up from the low 6 on enemy planes I saw silhouetted against the sky. I was also flying without tracers and flying like Hartmann. I did run into some trouble one time when I got a spit and his two buddies that I didn't see got me.

I've been surprised at the detail in some sims and the lack in others. WWII online for example modeled the aileron reversal on the spitfires back in the day. I'm not sure if they still do because they nerfed a bunch of the modeling due to complains by people who couldn't manage it.

That said each sim has it's plusses and minuses. To me the giant furalls in AH3 back in the day was some of the most fun I've ever had. I guess that was the golden age as I've not seen it replicated yet.

No other game out there currently can mimic ww2 scenario air battles like AH can. FSO and scenarios are a gem. While the flight model is easier than say DCS, you have to be even more aware of ACM since planes dont have as many factors like RPMs and throttle control not to over heat. The early F4U1 in AH can get into unrecoverable stall if you do the roll over too slow with flaps out. Thats its major weakness in 1v1 stall fight. Im glad I dont have to worry about my plane ruining me in flight, its all about time and fun for me and that would be such a waste. I think DCS is the best for realism and is the future but still doesnt have the best multi-player experience yet. Gh0st has a really good ww2 furball server now though. I wish more folks would give AH a chance but the subscription model really holds a lot of folks back from popping in from time to time.

[Oldman731]

I'm pretty sure comparing the flight models of most of the planes flying today would not give somebody the ability determine the accuracy of the flight model of these planes

Both HT and our Puma44 have flown a P-51.  Can't remember the name of the one, somewhere in the southeast.  Possibly we can hear from one of them?

-oldman

[hazmatt]

No other game out there currently can mimic ww2 scenario air battles like AH can.

subscription model really holds a lot of folks back from popping in from time to time.

I agree with both of these.

FSO back in the day was great fun, the best. I didn't play the scenarios much for some reason. Maybe it was my scheduling. From what I recall when I did it was a lot of fun too.

I for sure would pop in from time to time with my kids like we do in other sims but all the stuff I play currently has 4 accounts, 1 for me and one for each of my kids. 4 accounts in AH3 would cost me like $60 a month or around $718 a year. Not worth it for me to play together with my kids a couple times a week. That's why my kids won't be the next Ceevee. My eldest daughter does love  to fly what she calls the "purple plane" (Fokker D.VII), and my son is pretty good at blasting me when he's flying bombers and I attack him in a fighter (we used to do back in the day by setting up a player arena) For now we play together on WT, WoW or any of those other games that have FTP options and once in a great while in the western front arena but that's mostly only with my eldest daughter as my son thinks it's boring and my youngest is only intersted in driving tanks.

[hazmatt]

Both HT and our Puma44 have flown a P-51.  Can't remember the name of the one, somewhere in the southeast.  Possibly we can hear from one of them?

-oldman

If I recall correctly there's a video floating around of HT trying to light somebodies smoke with the P51 when he was starting it.

[Animl-AW]

Gray Eagle flew Crazy Horse (P-51D)
https://youtu.be/YAj8HBcZUJk

[Lusche]

Anybody planning to buy?

When it's on sale in a few years, perhaps.