Buff-Guns :((

[hazed-]

ripsnort said it all earlier...

so ill say no more  

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Hazed
3./JG2

[lazs]

they are boring and unrealistic to kill.  If you let them go they will have an unrealistic affect on the game and make it boring.   And that's all there is too it for a lot of folks.  
lazs

[Sunchaser]

OK Lazs, lessee if I understand this.

Endless respawning and furballing till they fall off is super realistic and has realistic effects on the game while uber guns on the bombers and bombing all the fighter hangers on the map from 57,0000 feet is not and has not, right?

Ya convinced me, I will not shoot at guys on my six and I will only bomb bomber hangers from 3K  to atone for the super bombsight and to prevent those bomber jerks from ruining your realistic experience.

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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[Kieran]

Buff guns suck if I am against them.
Buff guns suck if I am manning them.

Get the point?  

I think there is a balance. Buffs have a chance if they get alt, and that is the caveat. Used to be that alt was 25-35k. Now that alt is 15-25K. Which would you prefer to see?

I want bombers in the game. I want them to have a chance against me if I strike it alone ('cause they don't have a prayer in hell in a coordinated attack). Decrease lethality=no buffs. There is not much left of strat if you take that away. And let's not argue whether this part is real or that part is real, because reality is only the backdrop of this "game".

It's a simple formula for me: more targets are good, no matter what they are. Heck, if you really want to complain about something, discuss the lethality of the Osti! Some guys can kill you beyond visual range now...

[MrSiD]

Ok, do people really want  realism for the sake of realism?

Do we really want also the boring / bad parts of the airwar or just the entertaining part?

I doubt people would pay $30/month for a game that forces you to make regular patrol flights without finding anything worth mentioning. Nevertheless that would be realism.. Is that what people want?

IMO people want combat action with the appearance of realism. The realism should lie in the way the landscape and planes are portrayed. How the events match the historic counterparts, how the planes fly etc.

Most people play this game because they want to relive the excitement they once had reading ww2 comics or books when they were kids.. Back then this kind of simulation was just a fantasy beyond their dreams. Now it's a reality, yet its damaged by ill-behaving players (maybe the kids who missed all that reading..) It's also damaged by the fact that a part of the community wants the gameplay to be different than the other part.

The compromise of the two would be an arena with less distance so that the fights would intensify, combination of strat and furball..
That way both kind of players would be able to have what they want. I believe the map distances were expanded because of GV:s and the vulching problem.. In reality GV:s would never be able to sit on an airfield, a couple bazooka-guys would take care of them fast. The addition of ground war has then taken away the furballs.

But that's of course just my O.

[bowser]

Thank you Sunchaser.  Now if we can just convince the other 200 idiots.  

Edit: Forgot smiley.

bowser

[This message has been edited by bowser (edited 04-14-2001).]

[Revvin]

Historical attacks work fine. Far from flying around in my buff with impunity I get quite anxious when I see a fighter on my tail especially if I see him setting up a sensible attack on me because I know my pop guns will only slightly damage if at all before I take small damage and bits fly off my aircraft. Of course if he's the mindless furball type attacker he'll sit dead six and slow down so he can sit there and ping away at me and then shakes his fist in temper and splits his nappy as he eats lead   I've yet to see a buff in ANY online sim take the kind of damage we see in archived photos of bombers and probably never will because like it or not you might think buffs get all the concessions but you'd be wrong.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I'd like to see a little accuracy taken out o the norden, perhaps a little settling time ala Warbirds but would also like to see more target rich airfields so us buffs can carpet bomb in a histroical manner. Perhaps lines of parked planes on the grass between runways that need to be killed along with the hangars to disable a particular aircraft.

[Dinger]

Buff guns are great!  I've been flying the Ju88 A2A a good deal lately.  This TOD, if you exclude my ostwind engagements, I'm 16 and 12 in the Ju88, and 5 and 1 in the lancaster.  Yesterday I had a Ju88 sortie where I knocked down 2 P51s, a Cannon-Hawg and a Destroyer.  One of the P51 pilots got so pissed, he then ran me down on the deck, and stayed back there till I was dead, receiving a lethal amount of damage in the process.  So that's one plane taking out 4 enemies interceptors and a ship.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Buff guns suck when you attack them, and suck when you defend with them.  I'm saying Buff guns suck when you attack them and blow the crap out of the enemy when you defend with them.  It's about changing the lethality setting, and currently it's way too high.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-14-2001).]

[lazs]

sunchaser.. no, u don't get it it works like this.. they are boring and unrealistic to kill. If you let them go they will have an unrealistic
                     affect on the game and make it boring. And that's all there is too it for a lot of folks.

one of the main reasons this is true is not so much the fault of the bombers having all the concessions that make em unrealistic but a gameplay or strat issue.  The suicide bomber can allways make it to fields and easily kill the roofs of a few buildings affecting only fighters.  If he doesnt't make it the first time he can respawn and try it a couple more times.  A fighter can kill one with a realistic attack (maybe) even tho the guns on the buffs are so concession ridden but who has time for that kind of attack?

If buffs had more realistic targets then they could have more realistic bomb damage and people could have the time to make realistic attacks on em  (buff guns wouldn't be quite so controversial) and there would not be the animosity for them that there is right now but... If your only idea of having fun is spoiling it for another group then you will just have to put up with the animosity.
                     lazs

[Revvin]

And what about the concessions to the fighter weenies who only seem to need to pump the same ord into a buff that they do to a fighter before it goes down? what about the concessions made that allow you to spawn right in the middle of the fighting zone? the concessions made that only see a fghter hangar down for a pathetic 15 mins?

A buff mission takes me around an hour to play, fly to altitude (around 23-28k) in a rear positioned field then fly to the field I'm attacking drop my ord then fly home. I've been shot down plenty by players using a sensible approach to attacking me and I've alsodowned a few dweebs who think they should be able to sit on my six slow and steady and shoot me.

Laz posted:
 

A fighter can kill one with a realistic attack (maybe) even tho the guns on the buffs are so concession ridden but who has time for that kind of attack?

No maybe about it Lazs they do work. The majority of players here will use a sensible attack on a buff, don't acuse others of forcing their way of play on you when the way the game is played right now is the same right across the board in other sims...I suppose they are all wrong too Lazs? Its you that wants to force this ridiculous arcade game of playing on the majority. You have the duelling arena and you don't use it yet its setup for your desired way of playing the numbers speak volumes, the duelling arena is empty because the majority play the game as intended and not some stupid arcade weenie arena. There might be a vocal minority here in the forum but when it comes down to the nitty gritty the favoured way of playing this sim is quite clearly shown by the numbers using the MA over the duelling arena.

Quit the whining and play LAzs, go fly the duelling arena as its clear the MA makes you unhappy, while you're at it fit a coin slot to your computer to make you feel more at home.

[Sunchaser]

Hey Bowser no need for smileys, I got it.

Lazs get another soapbox, you have totally worn out the one you are standing on.


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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[lazs]

rev and sun... I don't blame you for not facing facts it must be painful with your current thinking.   Look... the fighters are ultra realistic compared to the bombers.  Loadout? LOL, put a couple hundred rounds of any type of loadout into a real buff and it will be ded or crewless.  fighter respawn?  How many fighters should a field have?   right now it's either an endless amount or none.  

Think a little... it could be improved for everyone.   If all you want to do is limit fighter availability tho then you will continue to get this animosity so quit acting so offended.   If you "force" fighters to attack you then of courss they are going to piss and moan about your bogus 1 man bomber crew with souped up guns.  

The way things are setup now the only people who like bombers are those who fly em and yes, every other sim is just the same way with the same results.  The most you will get out of the fighter guys is "but i don't want to see bombers eliminated from the game"  while at the same time squeaking about em.  
lazs

[Pepe]

Guns are Ok. Turn ability is not, especially full loaded. Solutions:

a) Norden Sight: improve realistic behaviour.

b) Decrease pinpoint accuracy over 20k

c) BIG Increase in hvy bombs' blast radius.

d) BIG Increase in damage inflicted to the ground. I.E. Big craters, and for a longer time.

As it is now, the buff work itself pales against the ackstar role. I'd like to use the map as a navigation tool, and set up the bomb run in a proper way. I'd like to have the big bombers using more the raw destructive power of 1000lbers and beyond, instead of the pinpoint accuracy of the current bombsight. I'd like to be able to damage the runway and the grass surrounding, and hampering operations for a nice amount of time....

When I am in a fighter, and I approach a buff near IP, I want to know that he will be on a stable course, or he will ruin his attack if he choses to break turn.

So, all in all, Buff-Guns is not the most relevant issue when Buff-Job is debating. Make Buff a valuable Bomb platform, instead of a marvelous flying ack one.

Cheers,

Pepe

[Jebo44]

Bring on the B-29!!!!!!!!!!

Let me go get my Flame Proof suit

[MANDOBLE]

The purpose of the buffs is to destroy ground targets, not to "erase" enemy fighters one by one. Once a 20k buff is detected by radar, you have no time to get to 20k and intercept it before the buff releases. 90% of buff strikes are done by surprise against undefended bases (no time to react prior to the drop) or against bases were the buffs have friendly CAP. In any case, buffs have a good chance to be success on their missions.
If buffs are headed alone against defended bases with no friendly CAP, they should be shootdown with minimal risk, I see no gameplay issue about that. If buffs are headed against undefended bases and the enemy reacts and try to intercept, no problem for the gameplay, the buff will be killed once most of its targets are destroyed.

And now, thinking about gameplay. Now you see one buff player happy, four interceptor players frustrated, and dozen players login out because most of their bases near a HOT point are closed and haven't 15 mins to fly from a farther base.