Buff-Guns :((

[janneh]

Yes buff guns are unrealistic, but perhaps they should be as stated many times in these "I attacked a buff and he shot me down"-posts. I did a test and I upped a B26 (for the very first time) and after dropped all my bombs I attacked 3 lower enemy fighters (109,P51,P38), I shot them all down with my backward guns...  
And when thinking about attacking them with fighter with my "skills", I'd as good as dead.

[Revvin]

Its not myself and Sun living in some warped fantasy world Lazs, its you that wants to force YOUR way onto everyone else. I have yet to see ANYONE in the MA moan about a bomber taking out FH's and spoiling the fight.

The fact still remains that you have a duelling arena for furballing and nobody uses it..why you may ask? because there is a very small minority group that will play YOUR way and play Aces High as some kind of childish arcade game.

Lazs posted:
 

continue to get this animosity

You keep propogatig this feeling of animosity towards buffs and again I have not seen this online and only a small minority display such feelings in the forums, usually the same guys like you or Apache who just can't understand this is a simulation of WW2 combat and not some kiddie arcade game.

The buff damage model IMO takes far too little hits before vital parts are destroyed, it was the same deal in Warbirds its just a concession to the quakers who want to sit on a buffs six and blast away with impunity.

Lazs posted:
 

The way things are setup now the only people who like bombers are those who fly em and yes, every other sim is just the same way with the same results. The most you will get out of the fighter guys is "but i don't want to see bombers eliminated from the game" while at the same time squeaking about em.

Why don't you quit putting words into other peoples mouths when this fetish for arcadness is your own ideas of how Aces High should run. The MA format is the same as any other and it works so how many thousands are you going to say are wrong becuase of course your singular view on this topic is oh so right.

Pepe> yes realistic bomb damage is the key but then that would upset Lazs even more when a group of buffs carpet bomb a field in a historically realistic fashion and destroy just about everything in sight and crater the runway so fighters cannot take off but thats of course if they rid Aces High of another fighter concession of being able to trundle across rough grass unhindered with no damage to the undercarriage.

Mandoble posted:
 

The purpose of the buffs is to destroy ground targets, not to "erase" enemy fighters one by one

The fighter hangars are a legitimate target and the fact that the game is concession rid to allow fighters to endlessly spawn from them and that another concession to fighters sees them down for a ridiculous 15 mins (hmm yes thats historical) then hittign the fighter hangars has been forced on the bombers to be a very important target to hit or they face certain destruction by wave upon wave of concession ridden fighter jocks slipping another quarter into the arcade machine.

 

Once a 20k buff is detected by radar, you have no time to get to 20k and intercept it before the buff releases

Rubbish absolute rubbish, combined with the over accurate radar we have in the arena added to another concession to fighters to have inflight AWACS and neon icons this is not the case, if you're all too busy furballing at 2k to bother checking the radar then you will miss the buffs flying overhead. This is supposed to be a WW2 combat sim, that includes buffs as well as fighters all that is needed is one or two fighters to fly recon to stop buffs surprising you. This of course again is a historical tactic employed by fighter command but again you arcade gamers want to force something different upon us.

You have a duelling arena so why not go use it instead of whining and trying to force your arcade gaming upon the rest of us, the numbers speak volumes and the majority prefer to play in a more realistic enviroment.

[lazs]

rev... read what mandoble wrote it is the sentiment that i hear the most and it is an indesputable truth.  One attention starved no talent can spoil the fun for a lot of guys.  I can only speak for myself but everyone in my squad and everyone I have ever talked to feels the same about how easy and unfun it is for a buff to take the roof off a couple buildings with laser guided bombs and ruin the fun of maybe dozens of guys.   I understand that you want to get attention but the price to the other players is too high... the balance is off.   I claim that there can be ways to give bombers something meanigful to do without it being so easy to spoil everyone elses fun.  I claim that bombers can be made more realistic and fun at the same time... tho.... gawd knows I would never fly one.

As for the 'dueling arena'.... who said they wanted to duel?  Certainly not me.  In fact... if you had bothered to read anything I have ever wrote instead of just "putting words in my mouth" you would know that I have stated numerous times that multiple arenas don't work.  people go where the numbers are.  Maybe that will change when numbers approch 300-500 players but so far...
lazs

[Revvin]

 

I can only speak for myself but everyone in my squad and everyone I have ever talked to feels the same

Now it is you putting words into peoples mouths, where are these people Lazs you imply its hundreds of people feel the same so where are they? Why is it that every online sim follows the same format with a few minor differences that bear nothin on this topic and yet nobody else whines about buffs spoiling the fun for furballers? Lets just cut to the chase Lazs this is yours and a very small minority view, a view you wish to push onto everyone in the arena. This has nothing to do with seeking attention, if I wanted attention I'd jump into a fighter and launch myself at the nearest furball and kill something so everyone could see my name in the buffer...ring any bells? yes thats exactly the behaviour YOU display so tell me Lazs who craves attention? the mindless furballer hell bent on getting his name on the buffer or the buff pilot who quietly goes about his business?

 

As for the 'dueling arena'.... who said they wanted to duel? Certainly not me

So lets look at the kind of arena you want...fly from your airfield, find a fighter, fight and win or lose...sounds like a duel to me except you have a choice of foes. So how am I putting words into your mouth?

Lazs you want an arena format that the majority do not want so another arena was setup for players like you so you can pump quarters into your PC all night and pretend you're down the local arcade. Another arena HAD to be setup because if HTC made the changes you ask for there would be a serious flow of customers to other sims. The numbers are there right now enough players to populate the MA in a realistic way and for those of you that like to mindlessly furball to have your own arena but nobody uses it because the MA format is the format the majority want, a format that the majority of ALL the online sim communities want.

That soapbox is looking rahter tattered now Lazs, time to retire it and find another one.

[Pepe]

Well, I think lazs is upset from the very moment he hears the word strat...        Kinda enters [Combat Mode ON] when anything like that is brought about      

On the damage side, I think that more realistic bomb damage would not hurt the game. As for the destruction of the airbase itself, If you want pinpoint accuracy, get jabos. If you go the destructive way, then use Buffs, and the whole airfield is destroyed. Runways, ammo depots, hangars, etc. What means, no sneaky landing Goon, just traditional 1k drop (or M3 for terrestrial capture), and lot of time to recover, with limited ammo, fuel, etc. supply.

Mandoble just raised again what I think is the other major gameplay concession that is badly implemented. Radar. I know it's a dead horse, and it's beaten a zillion times, but counter bars are the worst possible solution in search of a problem. Ruins NOE missions, and adds nothing to gameplay. If you want to know where the fight is, the dot radar or a question on ch2 is fair enough to find a quick fight. Put counterbars as some kind of long range radar, simulating ground reports, etc. seems OK for me, but the current status is laughable, and, in fact, harms gameplay as denies, or, at the very least, severely hampers, tactics used in real life, thus restricting game possibilities, instead of widening them.

Adding salt to the wound, this game feature put a heavy burden on the losing side (even more true when a country is gangbanged, or restricted to few bases), that can not use surprise as a mean of defense, without adding sensible benefits.

I know these two things are down below Htc.'s priority list, and I am not quitting because of them      ....all in all, I consider AH the best on-line sim as of today. But, as a personal opinion, would improve immensely with just these two issues solved:

* Bomb damage model/Bomber Sight
* Radar settings

Nothing original, several million times written on this BBS, just hoping my 0.02 after 0.02 would make me millionaire someday    

Pepe

[Edit Note]: I exchange Creative Crashing lessons for English ones. I can tell myself an "experten" in this particular side of the game    


[This message has been edited by Pepe (edited 04-17-2001).]

[lazs]

rev... not "hundreds" of players just everyone I talk to and most of them are in my squad.  Let's put it a different way... I have never talked to anyone who thought the way fighter availability is limited is working well or that the bombers are realistic compared to the fighters.

Every sim has field closure it's just that some do it better... less gimicky.. More fun for the majority.  You want to make it an "either or" thing... either we have it just as it is or we have a dueling arena.   No one is suggesting that.  In fact who wants a dueling arena anyway?  Not me, never asked for one.  

Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay?  in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not gonna help you.  I also believe that jumping in a fighter and getting kills would not be as easy as you think for you

We can have more realism AND more fun.  You fail to realize that most of the "guns are too good" thing comes out of the fact that buffs have to be attacked rapidly and with abondon or they are not worth attackin... they have allready done their 'damage'...  suicide buffs are all over the place.   Lone buffs killing and entire field (making it useless for either side) is common.   these things are wrong for both gameplay and realism.   they can be improved.   don't be so defensive.
lazs

[Ripsnort]

Back to the subject matter of the thread, I've post one method of buff engagement with a film, read "Aces High Training Film" thread in the HELP section.

[Revvin]

Thanks Ripsnort for expelling the myth of untouchable buffs, nice films on that site I'd recommend everyone view them <S>

Lazs> You just don't get it do you? you claim to want a less gimmicky arena and yet you wish to allow the endless spawning of fighters from a field??

Who are the "everyone" you speak to? the only animosity I see on the topic of buffs hitting FH hangars is you on your tired worn out little soap box. The only other complaint there has ever been was about buff guns and yet we see Ripsnorts film clealy showing its possible, the only people that want to tone down the guns and neuter buffs are the quakers who want a quick bang for their buck at the expense of the players who like to fly buffs..hardly fair but then fairness is not your style is it Lazs? you'd rather push this arcade game view on all of us just to keep you happy.

 

in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not gonna help you

??? When have I got huffy in the arena of it? are you now putting words into my mouth I don't recall ever showing such behaviour so I'd appreciate a screenshot of such an act.

 

In fact who wants a dueling arena anyway? Not me, never asked for one

The very nature of the way you want to change the MA will turn it into a mass duelling arena.

 

Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay?

<cleans off monitor screen, looks behind it, below and shakes head>

erm the only animosity I see is your constant whining about the same thing

 

We can have more realism AND more fun

And fighters endlessly spawning is more realistic? 15 minutes hangar downtime is realistic? inflight radar on all planes is realistic? the small ammount of damage done to buffs before they break is realistic? what colour is the sky on your planet Lazs?

 

You fail to realize that most of the "guns are too good" thing comes out of the fact that buffs have to be attacked rapidly and with abondon or they are not worth attackin

So stick another quarter in the slot you cheapskate! there is more to flying a fighter than mindlessly chasing one furbal lafter another, ever tried a bit of recon? with all the concessions of inflight radar and the ability to endlessly spawn should be more than enough to find a bomber or two.. but then that does not fit into your arcade mentality does it?

 

don't be so defensive

LOL so we should sit quietly by an let you rave on and on about how buffs should be neutered and whine on and on about making the MA into an arcade arena and say nothing? Well I'm sure you'd like that but it ain't gonna happen! I had said after the last thread you started to ignore you but then I figured something had to be said or HTC might just think its what we all want when it so obviously is not.

[bowser]

"...I have yet to see ANYONE in the MA moan about a bomber taking out FH's and spoiling the fight...".

Maybe you have all your radio channels squelched?  It's a common complaint, believe me.

bowser

[Dinger]

Just for fun, let's play a little logic game with the "pro-ueberbuff" morons.
 

hanks Ripsnort for expelling the myth of untouchable buffs, nice films on that site I'd
                      recommend everyone view them <S>

Straw man.  The claim isn't that buffs are "untouchable", but rather that the current strength given to their guns is damaging to gameplay.
 

                     Lazs> You just don't get it do you? you claim to want a less gimmicky arena and yet you wish to
                      allow the endless spawning of fighters from a field??

tu quoque.  The endless spawning of fighters is not at issue.
 

                     Who are the "everyone" you speak to? the only animosity I see on the topic of buffs hitting FH
                      hangars is you on your tired worn out little soap box.

Appeals ad populum are fallacious to begin with.  The cogency of Lazs' argument is irrespective of how many people actually hold it.
[qupte]
The only other complaint there has ever
                      been was about buff guns and yet we see Ripsnorts film clealy showing its possible, the only
                      people that want to tone down the guns and neuter buffs are the quakers who want a quick
                      bang for their buck at the expense of the players who like to fly buffs..hardly fair but then
                      fairness is not your style is it Lazs? you'd rather push this arcade game view on all of us just to
                      keep you happy.
[/quote]
Bite me
"The only other complaint" That's clear suppression of evidence.  Here are some other buff complaints:
A. The bombsight is way too accurate.
B. The bombsight is boring and easy
C. Bombs cannot be salvoed safe
D. Dweebs like Revvin fly them
--
Ripsnort's film clearly showing it's possible? BFD.  One training film of an ideal fighter pass and suddenly hours and hours of experience on both the interceptor and the bomber side are invalidated?

"quakers who like a quick bang for their buck"?
nice ad hominem, amazinhunk.
I like to fly bombers.  I like to blow toejam up.  I want to see the buff guns be more realistic.  I also want to see the number of Chawgs restricted.  So fck me!
 

                          quote:

                           in the game and getting all huffy and defensive and misreppresenting people is not
                           gonna help you


                      ??? When have I got huffy in the arena of it? are you now putting words into my mouth I don't
                      recall ever showing such behaviour so I'd appreciate a screenshot of such an act.

Well you sure as hell are defensive and misrepresenting people here.
 

                     The very nature of the way you want to change the MA will turn it into a mass duelling arena.

Slippery slope, like  "If you keep the buff guns the way they are, there will be perkpointing ackstars and Arados, and nothing in between".
 

                          quote:

                           Certainly even you can see that there is a lot of animosity towards the unrealistic
                           buffs and their blown out of proportion effect on gameplay?


                      <cleans off monitor screen, looks behind it, below and shakes head>

                      erm the only animosity I see is your constant whining about the same thing

 You shouldn't fault your opponent for assuming you had common sense.
 

                          quote:

                           We can have more realism AND more fun


                      And fighters endlessly spawning is more realistic? 15 minutes hangar downtime is realistic? inflight
                      radar on all planes is realistic? the small ammount of damage done to buffs before they break is
                      realistic? what colour is the sky on your planet Lazs?

A red herring here.  Plus "small amount of damage to buffs" is begging the question.  Many of us would like to see at least some of those things.  But any arena with "buffs with realistic guns" is certainly more realistic than "buffs with ridiculously powerful guns".
 

                          quote:

                           don't be so defensive


                      LOL so we should sit quietly by an let you rave on and on about how buffs should be neutered
                      and whine on and on about making the MA into an arcade arena and say nothing? Well I'm sure
                      you'd like that but it ain't gonna happen! I had said after the last thread you started to ignore
                      you but then I figured something had to be said or HTC might just think its what we all want
                      when it so obviously is not.

Yeah, don't be so defensive.  Your illogical ranting only bolsters our position.

BTW, if you see a Ju88 ackstarring along in the MA, it's probably me.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 04-17-2001).]

[101bakx]

well,

Guns are pretty ok but the speed of buffs is too high i.m.o. Lower the speeds and u will get interesting fights against fighters who can manouver better against the slower buffs.

[sling322]

 

Originally posted by lazs:
One attention starved no talent can spoil the fun for a lot of guys.  
lazs

Hmmm...so if you fly bombers, you are a "no-talent"....hmmm.

Sorry Sunchaser...it seems you have no talent.  

You ever think that maybe you are just running into someone who knows what the hell he is doing behind those bomber guns.  I myself attack bombers all the time.  If I come upon one who starts spraying at d2.0 then I know it is a newbie and I take a few more chances in getting in to make the kill.  However, if the gunner doesnt open up until I get in close then I know I might be in trouble unless I take some precautions.  

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by 101bakx:
well,

Guns are pretty ok but the speed of buffs is too high i.m.o. Lower the speeds and u will get interesting fights against fighters who can manouver better against the slower buffs.

Hi 101, welcome! Doubt you'll see speeds lowered unless you have facts and data backing up that the historical speed is truly porked on a particular flight model.  Positioning ones self is required to adjust your flight path for the speed of the buff.  In WW2, I cannot recount one german pilot asking the B17 formations to slow their approach to IP's....

Regards.

[Revvin]

Nice try with the big words there Dinger but your potty mouth spoilt it so we can see where your mommies words end and yours begin, try typing the whole thing yourself.

The endless spawning of fighters is an issue because buffs are forced into taking out FH's or they stand no realistic chance of survival against wave upon wave of fighters.

 

Your illogical ranting only bolsters our position

You might want to read what you post before hitting the 'submit reply' button, it might stop you making a hypocritical love muffin out of yourself.

As for being a dweeb...OMFG you got me there, the pain is unbearable LOL.

[lazs]

rev..  u are ranting like a loon.  U are misrepresenting me also.   I don't believe that you have even the slightest idea of what I want.   Ranting is fine but try to cut down on the lieing..  As for the color of the sky on my planet... What difference does that make?  On "my planet" people are complaining about the unbalance and unfun of the bombers.   Perhaps it really is different on your planet tho.  What color is the sky there?

You are getting really personal with your insults... I don't mind that but... you should refrain from bald faced lies when you do as it will give your insults more strength and credence.

I have never said that bombers couldn't be shot down... only that it took too long to make any differrence and that it was boring, unfun, and embarassing because of all the concessions, be they 1 man crews or gunnery or bomb accuracy or bomb sights or whatever..   I also feel that more targets is better... I also wouldn't mind realistic accuraccy and bomb damage.  

If you simply want a bomber arcade then fine... say so... admit that you don't want realism and simply want an arcade game to play while everyone else is in a sim.  put in another coin and solo crew an entire B17 with laser guided boms and bogus targets.

As for endless respawning... we don't have endless respawning.   We wouldn't have endless respawning if fighters were available longer and fields closed easier.   15 minutes for fighter hangers down??  well, yeah... In reality it would take about 15 minutes or so to fill in craters and get planes back in the air.   to get everybody out of the slit trenches and back in planes but... 15 minutes is as much as a quarter of the time most people have to play and the hangers can easily be knocked out again right away.   The field isn't usually captured tho..... Oh no... it is simply useless..  nobody can take off and the attackers have nothing to do but mill around.   Make the fields easier to close/capture but make fighters available till the bitter end.  
lazs