Author Topic: About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds  (Read 1017 times)

Offline Widewing

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2002, 04:14:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wells:
From the August 1993 issue of Aeroplane Monthly.

This type of specific "test report" was shot full of holes by Dr. Carl Fisher, Chief Test Pilot and Chief Engineer of Curtiss-Wright Propeller Division. Dr. Fisher "proved" that any WWII vintage propeller ceased to flow air through it at Mach .85, where it became little more than a large circular airbrake. Moreover, he demonstrated that induced instrument error led to the misleading speed readings. It seems that the air pressure rise within the static pitot system lagged as much as 20,000 feet behind the altitude of the aircraft, and since an extended instrument probe was not used, all readings were subject to "shock wave error".

Similar reports were received from field testing of the P-47, under like circumstances. Like the Spitfire test, they were discounted due to instrumentation error. Remember, the D.H. 108 had broken up at lower speeds, and that the F-80C Shooting Star was never able to exceed Mach .94 in a dive, despite have lower drag numbers than the Spitfire and no propeller.

I'd file this Spitfire test report in the "wishful thinking" folder.

My regards,

Widewing

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Widewing ]
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2002, 04:47:00 AM »
I read pretty the much the same thing somewhere on the internet once Widewing.

It just doesnt make sense the F86 just barely broke into supersonic in a dive, the F80 never could, nor the Me163 and Me262, though a guy claims he did it in 45. Yet you guys say Spit went up to what .97-.99? No way.

Offline Karnak

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2002, 04:34:48 AM »
Actually the typical claim was .92 mach in the accounts I have read.  The pilot said the air took a transconic milk look to it as it was going over the top of the wing (the air flow over the top of the wing being faster than the air over any other part of the aircraft).

Given what Widewing has said I would guess that the Spit in question got to .82 to .85 mach.

Remember, the Spit has a higher critical mach number than the Me262 does.
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Offline wells

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2002, 04:41:22 AM »
The plane lost 40700 ft in 47 s.  That's an average speed of 866 ft/s (513 knots).  Applying that speed at 25k (approximate average between points B and C), you get Mach 0.83.

Offline gripen

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2002, 08:27:02 AM »
Generally I doubt that Spitfire XIX data, it was not a properly instrumented test. But those RAE tests were instrumented (RAE did them at spring 1944).

gripen
« Last Edit: January 12, 2002, 08:32:34 AM by gripen »

Offline qts

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2002, 08:36:07 AM »
Quote
This type of specific "test report" was shot full of holes by Dr. Carl Fisher, Chief Test Pilot and Chief Engineer of Curtiss-Wright Propeller Division.


Hardly an unbiased 3rd party. And do note that the speed of sound changes with height

Offline niklas

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2002, 09:51:26 AM »
Another contradiction in the chart is the acceleration from point A to point B in 9secons.

dv = 277kn = 142m/s
a  = dv/t  =  15.8m/s^2 = 1.6G

well, 1G gives you gravity, but where does the other 0.6G come from??? Itīs unpossible, absolutly unpossible that your engine power at 50k gives you another 0.6G acceleration. Donīt forget, drag must be overcomed too.

I also doubt that the spit reached 50k. The stratosphere begins according to the standard atmosphere in 35k, this would be +40%. I mean, i believe the instrument showed 50k but i assume that the spit flew lower.

Very funny to see that TAS was at the beginning higher than the speed of sound. So mach 0.96 is just the result of the correction factors. When theyīre wrong (and they are wrong imo) everything becomes a joke.
The whole test evaluation is a joke imo

niklas

Offline Vector

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2002, 12:26:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wells
The plane lost 40700 ft in 47 s.  That's an average speed of 866 ft/s (513 knots).  Applying that speed at 25k (approximate average between points B and C), you get Mach 0.83.


And mach 0.83 was excatly the best what P-47's could do. There's an insteresting article here:
Pushing the envelope with test pilot Herb Fisher

An extract from the site:
Despite having a propeller that was designed to be more efficient at these speeds, the fact remained that the drag rise across the prop was so great that it functioned like a giant disk shaped air brake. Fisher had proved beyond any doubt that all previous claims of exceeding the speed of sound while diving a prop driven aircraft were untrue. There is little doubt that the pilots who reported speeds in excess of Mach 1 were honestly and accurately reporting what they has seen on their air speed indicator. However, due to the extreme rate of descent, the pressure differential in the static pressure airspeed indicator lags far behind the actual altitude of the aircraft. Air speed indicators of the era were not designed to cope with descents that could exceed 40,000 feet per minute. This difference between outside pressure and that within the system would indicate wildly ambitious speeds. These pilots had simply been fooled. When we stop and consider that the ultra-sleek P-80A Shooting Star jet fighter was never able to exceed Mach .94, how can anyone believe that a prop driven fighter could even come close?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2002, 12:33:10 PM by Vector »

Offline J_A_B

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2002, 12:35:46 PM »
"What I'd allways understood about the P-51 radiator installation is that it was high drag"

The P-51D radiator is actually lower drag than that of the Spit 9.  It indeed LOOKS larger and bulkier, but looks can be decieving.

The Spit 9 has its radiator right smack against the bottom of the wing, where it disrupts airflow over much of the lower surface of the wing (hence it causes quite a bit of drag).   On the other hand, the P-51's radiator, with its air inlet dropped several inches under the body of the plane, has a FAR lesser impact on the airflow over the rest of the plane.  Plus, as noted, it also added positive thrust.

J_A_B

Offline Tjay

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2002, 05:14:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

Because the Spit produced very little positive thrust from its radiators, the Mustang a lot.


So someone explain to me how a radiator produces thrust please. I understand that good design might reduce drag to a minimum but where is the energy coming from in this device to produce thrust?

Offline M.C.202

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2002, 05:35:42 PM »
Tjay ask:

So someone explain to me how a radiator produces thrust please. I understand that good design might reduce drag to a minimum but where is the energy coming from in this device to produce thrust?


Like many of the threads here on the A.H. board, a radiator produces a lot of hot air :D

This is "free" power in the form of turning a cold incoming air supply into hot and expanding air, ie. thrust.

I hope I'm right on this :rolleyes:

Offline Widewing

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About the Spitfire IX at very high speeds
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2002, 05:45:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tjay


So someone explain to me how a radiator produces thrust please. I understand that good design might reduce drag to a minimum but where is the energy coming from in this device to produce thrust?


This is the "Meredith Effect". I have included the Meredith Report for those interested.

Behold, the now famous Meredith Report....
_____________________________ _______________________

Note On The Cooling Of Aircraft Engines With Special Reference To Ethylene Glycol Radiators Enclosed In Ducts

By F. W. Meredith, B.A.

Communicated by the Director of Scientific Research, Air Ministry

Reports and Memoranda No. 1683

14 August, 1935


Summary.

(a) Introductory (Purpose of investigation). --The recent increase in the speed of aeroplanes has brought the question of cooling drag into prominence and forced the application of the principle of low velocity cooling. An analysis of the performance of a cooling system enclosed in a duct is required to guide further research and design.

(b) Range of investigation. -- The theory of the ducted radiator is developed and a basis of calculating the drag is provided.
The effects of compressibility are also investigated.


(c) Conclusions. -- It is shown that the power expended on cooling does not increase with speed for a properly designed ducted system but that, owing to recovery of waste heat, a thrust may be derived at speeds of the order of 300 m.p.h.
Attention is drawn to the importance of the momentum of the exhaust gases at high speeds of flight.



Introductory. -- Cooling of aero engines involves the exposure of a large heated surface to a stream of air, a process which involves the expenditure of power owing to the viscosity of air. Until recently, it appeared that this fact imposed an intractable limit to the speed of aircraft since, whereas the heat transfer only varies directly as the speed of the air over the surface, the power expenditure varies as the cube. Thus even though the exposed surface be adjusted until only the required heat transfer is effected, the power expenditure increases as the square of the speed.
The advent of wing surface cooling appeared, at one time, to offer a solution of this difficulty by effecting the cooling without any additional surface. There is, however, reason to believe that the heat transfer necessarily increases the drag of the wing. Apart from this, the Supermarine S 6 B utilised practically the entire exposed surface for cooling and additional surface inside the wing. Further advance in speed appeared to depend upon raising the temperature of the surface.

It is the purpose of the report to show that, by correct design of low velocity cooling systems, in which the surface (whether in the form of honeycomb radiator or of fins on the cylinder heads and barrels) is exposed in an internal duct, the power expended on cooling does not increase with the speed of flight, but that, on the contrary, it should diminish to vanishing point at a practicable speed beyond which the cooling system contributes to the propulsion.


Effects of compressibility of the air. -- These effects are four.

(1) The effective temperature of the air is raised by the kinetic energy of the main stream.
(2) The drop in pressure across the radiator is increased for the same mass flow by the reduction of density resulting from heating the stream.

(3) At altitude, the power necessarily expended in the radiator varies inversely as the square of the density and inversely as the cube of the available temperature difference.

(4) The available energy of the cooling stream is increased by the expansion after the addition of heat.


Effect of the momentum of the exhaust gases on the drag of an engine installation. - Various proposals have been made to utilise the energy of the exhaust gases to assist the induction of the cooling stream, although design to date has apparently been little affected by consideration of the momentum of the issuing gases.
Broadly it may be stated that the effect of the momentum is the same whether it be diffused with the cooling stream or not. It should be noted, however, that some of the benefit in thrust will be lost by a consequent increase of skin friction drag if the exhaust gases scrub an appreciable surface at high velocity. For this reason diffusion of momentum inside the duct my be desirable and this may be convenient method of diffusing the exhaust heat.

The thrust derivable from the rearward direction of the exhaust gases is given by the product of the mass flow and the velocity of exit and the latter quantity depends upon the internal design of the exhaust system. The thrust power is, however, also proportional to the speed of flight. Thus it becomes increasingly important to utilise this thrust as the speed of flight increases.

No attempt is here made to tulips the power which may be available from this source. It is suggested, however, that if by the use of suitable deflectors for guiding the exhaust gases round the necessary bends and by the avoidable of excessive unguided expansions, an appreciable proportion of the original energy of the exhaust gases can be preserved, this will provide an appreciable increment to the thrust horse power of a high speed aeroplane.


Conclusions. -- The employment of the principle of low velocity cooling avoids the necessity for an increasing expenditure of power with increasing speed provided the exit conditions are adjusted to suit the speed.
Further the combined effects of compressibility and heat transfer from the radiator may reduce the power consumption to nothing if the size of the radiator is adequate. By the use of the heat of the exhaust, in addition, and appreciable thrust may be expected from the presence of the cooling stream.

Finally, attention is drawn to the importance of the momentum of the exhaust gases for a high speed aeroplane, although no attempt is made to deal with this point quantitatively.

_____________________________ _______________________
My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.