Author Topic: Jg26  (Read 450 times)

Offline eddiek

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Jg26
« on: January 14, 2002, 09:07:24 AM »
Okay, I decided that since I am not as well "informed" about the LW and it's activities and planes in WW2, I would start reading and researching it as much as I could.
I have in the past pointed out that I thought and still think the 109G10 is too fast, as the top speed I always see for this plane is in the 426-428mph range, never any more than that.  LW supporters have pointed out that the engine Pyro modelled in our G10 was in fact available, so, even tho I cannot find any reference to it in the twenty or so books I have read since that time, I concede the point.  
As to the title of this post, I just finished reading "JG26, Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald L. Caldwell.  According to the foreword by Adolf Galland, this is the first detailed history of a LW unit written by an American in the English language.  I am sure  someone will say how they think it is bias, "blah, blah blah", whatever.........
I found it pretty fascinating reading personally.  I got an idea of LW tactics, their mentality, a feel for their opinions of their planes and those of the enemy, etc.
My own conclusions from reading the book:

Pilot Quality:  The pilots who survived the war were truly Experten, the attrition rate and Darwinian nature of air combat meant that to survive, you had to be damn good at the art of flying.  As the war drew closer to it's inevitable conclusion, pilot quality fell dramatically.  The top JG26 pilots were better than the average Allied pilot, but the average JG26 pilot was found to be considerably less capable than his average Allied counterpart.  

Tactics:  In AH, Mustangs got called "Runstangs" for utilizing their ability to extend from a fight.  In the book, from the JG26 pilots' accounts, that was about 90% of their tactics.  Find a blind spot, in the sun, on the enemy's low 6, wherever, hit them, then run like hell.  AH LW "lovers" need to examine history a bit better before condemning or name calling, as what the so called "Runstang" drivers are doing almost exactly mimics what the LW "Top Guns" did in real life.


Planes:  Hard to put into words what I am thinking.  As long as their planes had an edge, JG26 did most of the killing.  When the tables turned and the Allies put up more and more capable fighters the unit did more and more dying.  Not an excuse or a slam, just how I see it.  On the Eastern front, against a different enemy with lower quality aircraft, the Russians, the unit seemed pretty invincible.    Taken back to the Western front, against aircraft more like their own, their successes were less spectacular.  Very few pilots eclipsed the century mark in kills on the Western front in JG26, while the pilots with HUGE kills tallies served primarily on the Eastern front.

Miscellaneous:  Reading the history of the unit from start to finish, I see an unbelievable parallel between the two sides, Axis and Allies and what they did during the war.
During the BoB, the LW bombers were pretty much unescorted due to the lack of range of the 109's.  So, in the end, the LW was unable to destroy the RAF and Hitler and the rest of the thugs were unable to invade/conquer England.  The LW fighters pretty much reigned supreme against the obsolete fighters in Poland, Belgium, Russia, etc(can you say "clubbing baby seals"?), but when faced with a plane of their own caliber, their successes were not as great.
Jump to the Allied bombing campaigns, prior to escorts capable of taking the bombers to the target and back.  If you look at it objectively, you can see that the LW did nothing more than what the RAF did over England.  They wrought havoc on unescorted bombers.  When the escorts arrived, the LW was not able to kill as many buffs.  Error on the side of the Allied high command almost doomed daylight bombing, much the same way LW high command actually did do during the BoB.  Nothing "super" about what the LW did prior to the Allied escorts, just their good fortune to be there for the juicy targets.

How does this relate to Aces High?
It doesn't, unless you want it to.  I used to get amused at one player's "Allied opportunists" comments, then I started thinking about it, and while it didn't offend me, it did make me wonder why people nowadays are looking at the Germans and LW in WW2 as victims of Allied aggression.
FWIW, and just my opinion, "Allied opportunists" falls into the same category as "Runstangs".  Hitler and his thugs started WW2 by picking on countries less powerful than Germany, less advanced, and basically unprepared for war.  At the war's end, the Germans were getting treated the same way they treated those countries they overran at the beginning of the war.  IMHO, they deserve no sympathy at all.  What goes around comes around.
Now, I just need to figure out what to call Axis types........"Scumbag opportunists'?  :p

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Jg26
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2002, 01:49:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek
I found it pretty fascinating reading personally.  I got an idea of LW tactics, their mentality, a feel for their opinions of their planes and those of the enemy, etc.


This is a great book.  Caldwell did a lot of drudge work going through Nazi records.  It's important to re-read one of the appendices at the end (the one-pager) about claims reporting and records.  As I've said elsewhere, I think that Nazi claims are pretty seriously inflated, and Caldwell sort of glosses over this.  OTOH, there's no doubt that this is the best book so far on life from the other side, particularly toward the end of the war, when, understandably, there were a lot of LW folks who would prefer not to take off to virtually certain death.  As you say, what goes around comes around.

- Oldman

Offline eddiek

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Jg26
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2002, 05:17:47 AM »
I think some of the LW pilots were really great without a doubt.
However, like you said, I think a lot of their kill totals were exaggerated as a Nazi propaganda tool, to show the world how superior the Nazis/Aryan race was.  Goebbels was a master at manipulation of facts, and it would be nothing to "doctor" the records to show any claimed plane as a "confirmed" kill.  
That's why I don't put absolute faith in a lot of stuff written about LW exploits during the war.   So many of the pilots who flew then and the writers of the books swallowed Goebbels' bait, hook, line and sinker and really believe that there did exist in Germany a master race.
Oh well, like I said, it made for some interesting reading anyway.

Offline janjan

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Jg26
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2002, 06:30:23 AM »
Runstangs...I don't think there are any AH players who flies mostly LW planes that do not know that hit and run was the principle/favourable tactic for downing planes. If he/she has done any reading at all it is.

You just have to call your foe something and that P-51 just happens to be a wonderful plane :).

Offline -ammo-

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Jg26
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2002, 09:52:10 AM »
Great Book, read it twice:)

Another interesting thing that is mentioned is what JG26 pilots thought of their allied opponents (AC) in early 44.  They didnt think much of the lightening while the P-47 had their utmost respect.  Now one could say that this correlated to the fact that most P-38's were sent to the Afrika region (a Management decision) therefore their just wasnt many of them in the ETO in this timeframe.  The Pony was just on the scene and they stated it was too early to say anything about htis AC. However later on Galland himself said that the pony was the finest USAAF AC scene during the war. That was his Opinion:) i like to think that the Jug was the best.  As far as the P-38, they said something to the extent that its twin booms made it easy to identlify an easy kill...LOL
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Seeker

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Jg26
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2002, 11:24:49 AM »
This ís one of my favourite sites:

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/sparkes/contents.htm

(memoirs of a CBI hurri pilot).

The guy was also an advanced gunnery instructor in India. He say in there that they often used to tease P38 pilots for their hit and run tactics, and never staying around to fight; which illustrates that ETO and PTO P38 squads seem to have had very different doctrines.

Offline Grendel

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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2002, 11:49:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek

However, like you said, I think a lot of their kill totals were exaggerated as a Nazi propaganda tool, to show the world how superior the Nazis/Aryan race was.  Goebbels was a master at manipulation of facts, and it would be nothing to "doctor" the records to show any claimed plane as a "confirmed" kill.  


No more than the Allied's did.

The victories are simple bureaucracy work. They were no propaganda, but checked very thoroughly. The statistics are from Luftwaffe staff, not from Goering. A confirmation for a victory usually took months, sometimes even year or longer before it was finally awarded to the pilot.

Newspapers etc were of course glorifying the work of the pilots, on both sides, but when it comes to real history and facts, the things you find from archives showing losses and victory claims are just pure facts.

You'd see that yourself if you took time and studied the subject. Propaganda is propaganda, whatever the side. British and American newspapers were just as full of that, like the occasions when "P-40s shot down 50 nazi planes in one battle" or "b-17 gunners shot down over 100 jerry fighters". But when historicians go to the archives and look at the squadron paperworks, or go through official figures, that is entirely different thing. And those are the materials, that consist the backgroudn for the kill lists or books.

Offline Pyro

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Jg26
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2002, 08:42:12 AM »

Offline Seeker

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Jg26
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2002, 10:41:31 AM »
Great link, thanks

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2002, 08:11:04 PM »
eddiek i think you are confusing some things here.

Im not sure why others called P51s 'runstangs' but I personally equated it to the fact that most times i encountered them in AH they would dive from above me and try to hit a few times, then if i managed to turn the tables they would dive and run for MILES!!! not just to a point where they can safely reverse and so carry on the ENJOYABLE fight.It had nothing to do with historic behaviour as 99.9% of our behaviour in AH doesnt reflect in the SLIGHTEST the actions of real pilots.I only call those who run for an excessive period where enjoyment is lost a 'runstang' or 'Dullard!' :D.As soon as I had a chance to catch P51s in a Dora I personally had no problem, or at least i encountered this '100 mile chase begging for them to turn' less often.I think the 'runstang' comment came from the long period of excessive performance difference the P51d enjoyed for well over a year in AH.(before dora/la7s/etc)

If you read the accounts of british pilots during the BOB they always refer to the high attack followed by the dive(because of superior dive performance) and egress.I think pretty much anyone who reads about the war knows this sort of thing.BUT AH is a game and the MA is an arcade type arena so endless chases got very dull.When I saw the comments the other way said against the dora when I egress in it I laughed because at last allied flyers got a taste of the frustration. I have to say though that I will often turn back into a fight even if im unlikely to win in AH because I can understand how annoying this 'Real tactic flying' can be to the other player, AND i cant be bothered to fly for so long without a fight. Im sure there are quite a few who can confirm this whom ive fought.

As for your comment on LW excessive claims I suggest you read what my country (UK) claimed vs what was lost on record from the LW. I suggest also you read about how in the pacific theatre the Japanese became experts at building wooden mock ups for the allies to destroy at their airfields whilst the real aircraft were cunningly hidden in the jungles.British and American pilots alike made claims for these so just how many did we really kill?
Its all very difficult to judge what is accurate in claims and kills.The best we can do is look at what both sides claim and choose a figure somewhere in the middle of the two.

But hey, we won the war and so it really doesnt matter what the enemy claim.To the victor goes the privelige of writting history.
A very good example of what is truth and what isnt is what we were taught about 'what the russians did in the war'.For many years it didnt suit either the UK or the US  to highlight what they did over our successes.Now we know just what they had to endure more clearly.

Just to really freak you out go read about the Russian offensive in Manchuria(spelling?) during 1945! I knew nothing of this huge battle until very recently.Russians and chinese vs the japanese.LARGE aerial battles with the best aircraft either side could field.The Ki84 was recognised by the Russians as a deadly fighter but the japanese faced the age old problem. They just couldnt make enough or produce the pilots to fly them.
Does this mean Russian planes were superior? who knows?

Only those that were there know that.

Im currently reading the JG26 book you mentioned and I personally find it quite LW biased in places, a little bit of LW worship maybe? hey you have to admire or like their exploits to write and SELL te book right? .Also some of the recounting of the battles sound impossible when put into AH context..Read the 'black friday' chapter P263

24 lightnings vs 61 JG26 Fw190s(2 gruppes) and 40 109s. 15 lightnings claimed (less confirmed) and 21 mixed LW killed according to the account? does that sound like a typical outcome of a similar balanced AH fight? Of course not. Because AH, like i said doesnt even SLIGHTLY represent the behaviour. We would fight till we died without fear.Those poor bastards had to do this for real.Run to save your ass? HELL YES! and a damn huge pat on the back for gettin away i say.

Lets stop trying to claim we represent those pilots eh? we arent fit to shine their damn shoes.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2002, 08:20:52 PM by hazed- »

Offline mauser

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Jg26
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2002, 12:20:14 PM »
Caldwell's book is a great read.  I went through it rather quickly (it was also a library book so I had to), but I liked it a lot.  I think "Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora 9," is a great read also.  If you want a more balanced account of pilot's feelings you'll probably get it there.  If you look at the photos of the pilots in that book, check out the captions.  You'll see that most of them were KIA/MIA.  Then reading the text you get more of the feeling that these guys were just waiting for their turn to not come home.   Not trying to make anyone feel sorry for them, rather point out that people were people (for the most part), and being in a war is hell for all (except those that call the shots from the comfort of their official offices).  One of the pilots I found admirable was Hans Dortenmann.  There was an order from OKL/OKW to takeoff and fly at an altidude where they would most certainly have been slaughtered by allied fighters encountered moments earlier, basically suicidal orders.  He disobeyed those orders knowing most of his pilots were barely ready to fly in formation and Pips Priller, JG26's Kommandeur stepped in to get him out of trouble.  Good leaders look out for their men... I consider Pappy Boyington one of the best at this, and guys like Priller, Dortenmann and Hartmann also.  I have a feeling that Gabby was this way also, but I haven't read his bio yet (I really admire his humble attitude though, and I have a feeling he will be up there on my list).  

About (individual) LW kill claims, wasn't this matter dealt with before?  Weren't most of these claims confirmed by post-war research into loss records?  About the Eastern vs. Western front kills thing.. look for the "Black Cross, Red Star" series of books and it's associated web page.  The authors (German and Russian researchers) give another side to the theories that the East was a piece of cake for the LW, and that pilots in the West were better at combat than the east.  

Personally, I choose to admire those that cared for their men rather than due to any "superhuman-ness" that nazi propaganda spread around.  I guess some AH LW pilots have given the rest a bad rap or something.  But don't paint us all the same way... I've lost respect for some who seem to show a narrow field of view so to speak wrt this.  Hm, come to think of it, had I started WWII sims in high school some 10-15 yrs ago I'd have chosen to fly only P-51's and F4U's.  I would've avoided all german planes b/c of the "nazi plane" sentiment.  Back then, I read Yeager's and Pappy's bios and held them in the highest light.  I don't have as much respect for Yeager now, though Pappy is still one of my faves.  I now actually have some LW pilots in my admire list now, as well as Sakai (I wouldn't have dreamed of admiring an IJA/IJN pilot back then).  The more I read, the more that is revealed to me.  

It's been shown that many of the men who actually fought WWII have met each other and forgiven each other as individuals, this being true especially among pilots and not so much among those in armies.  I'm sure what they ALL want to tell us is.. never to do this again.  

mauser

Offline klem

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2002, 02:51:21 PM »
I dont think eddiek does a bad job of summing things up. Threads like this will always move towards detail and counter-detail.

As as far as AH is concerned I think you only have to consider the scores of the best RL pilots to know we abuse the privelege of virtual life. Even I can rack up more kills in one campaign that Johnny Johnson did in the entire war and the best guys will readily outstrip the best RL LW counts (no matter which front) because we can all just raise from the virtual dead and do it again. I find the scenarios interesting because we all move more cautiously as we dont want to be 'out' - not even for 2 hours. That's about as close as we get. Imagine if HT said we would be 'out' for 6 months! I think I'd man the control room :)

However, after all the reading I've done there are enough parallels in AH to salve my 'reality' need. The fundamentals are all there in plane differences and tactics. The discussions about plane v plane, 'runstang' (LW?) tactics etc are all part of the shifting sands of time, surprise, technology, organisation, opportunity and numbers that chronologically moved the real thing to it's inevitable conclusion.

I am currently reading 'First and Last' by adolph Galland - it was hard to find! One of the earlier comments in the book was how Goering still clearly believed that maneouverability was the key factor whilst Galland already favoured the slash, kill and run tactics that were suited to the 109 and so common in LW tactics. You could say that with the relatively (I say RELATIVELY) less maneouverable 109 that this was inevitable, perhaps born against the slower tight-turning planes in Spain, but isn't that the way the P47, P51, even the P38 turned out? Complaints about 'runplane' and other (HO?) tactics in AH amuse me. If it's available someone is going to use it - and would have done in RL until, in some cases, the cost was counted. One BoB RAF Squadron Leader - I forget the name - regularly formed his planes up line-abreast and went head-on into the 190s until the inevitable losses became unacceptable.

As for the Pilots that survived the war being Experten I think they were also damned lucky. Many times I read biographies that talk of outstanding fellow pilots that died nevertheless because their luck ran out or they briefly failed to notice something. Conversely hundreds of less competent pilots survived due to being in a relatively quiet part of the war.

Thought provoking stuff and pretty poignant in places.

Offline klem

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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2002, 03:08:34 PM »
eerrmmmm did I sat 'head-on into the 190s' ? A typo of course, they were 109s.

klem