It's just Plane wierd.....

[Urchin]

I don't think it is exactly fair to say the buff guns are "overmodeled".  I don't think that they are any more, I have used that .target function EXHAUSTIVELY to prove to myself that they are the same as the 'fighter' .50s.  

I did the following-

Took a B-17, put the .target at various ranges out to max range (which was 1400 yards and some change), and fired ONLY the nose guns (which are the two cheek guns and the nose turret).  Now, this is a tad a-historical, because the navigator could only man one cheek gun at a time, but this is a minor point.  I took some screenies (which are deleted now, but it is an easily reproducable test).  I then took a P-38, and used the 4 guns in the nose on the .target at various ranges, out to max range (which was, coincidentally, ALSO 1400 yards and some change).  The dispersion patterns looked identical in all cases except for VERY short range (where each gun actually leaves its own seperate pattern, under 100 yards).  Now, correct me if I am wrong, but a bullet will have a 'set' kinetic energy when it leaves the barrel of a gun, right?  And it uses that energy up to fly through the air and punch through some thin metal called an enemy plane.  If both the fighter AND the bomber .50s had the SAME max range (1400-odd yards to the front), AND the same dispersal pattern- then they are identical AND would hit at the same power, right?

Now, I also did this test with the rear guns of a B-17 (which are the same as on the B-26).  The Max range was 1800 yards and change.  Now, it may seem that HTC has artificially extended the range of the guns- BUT... I will try to explain this as I see it.  

The reason that the forward firing guns can only travel 1400 yards and change (to hit a target that is moving away from you at the same speed you are moving), is because they are actually travelling the same distance that the rear guns bullets are travelling to hit a target that is 1800 yards away but moving towards you at the same speed you are moving.  The rear guns also probably hit harder since you are travelling INTO them, thus allowing them to keep more of their energy for going through you, rather than going through the air trying to get to you.  

Now, this doesn't mean that there is NOTHING wrong with buff guns.  I believe that the firing arcs need to be revamped, and that either the gunners should be able to shoot off parts of their own plane or not be able to shoot through their plane to hit you.  I also think that .50s in general hit a bit to hard, but that may be because of HTC's 'all or nothing' damage model, where each round that hits you appears to take away a certain number of 'hit points', and when that total is exhausted you are dead.

[Tac]

Grun, vehicles have a different kind of .50 cal MG, it has faster muzzle velocity but a tad slower refire rate. They hit, they hurt more than a fiter's .50's.

I still cling that the buffs range extension also included the kinetic punch increase. Theres no way for a fighter's .50's caressing an enemy fighter at d900  and doing no damage vs a buff .50 cal hitting you at d1.4 and breaking your wing off with a few pings.

Oh, and btw, I bet that the "top turret" also had the nose turret and tail turret shooting at you through the fuselage.

[CJay]

Originally posted by Urchin
I don't think it is exactly fair to say the buff guns are "overmodeled".  I don't think that they are any more, I have used that .target function EXHAUSTIVELY to prove to myself that they are the same as the 'fighter' .50s.  

I did the following-

Took a B-17, put the .target at various ranges out to max range (which was 1400 yards and some change), and fired ONLY the nose guns (which are the two cheek guns and the nose turret).  Now, this is a tad a-historical, because the navigator could only man one cheek gun at a time, but this is a minor point.  I took some screenies (which are deleted now, but it is an easily reproducable test).  I then took a P-38, and used the 4 guns in the nose on the .target at various ranges, out to max range (which was, coincidentally, ALSO 1400 yards and some change).  The dispersion patterns looked identical in all cases except for VERY short range (where each gun actually leaves its own seperate pattern, under 100 yards).  Now, correct me if I am wrong, but a bullet will have a 'set' kinetic energy when it leaves the barrel of a gun, right?  And it uses that energy up to fly through the air and punch through some thin metal called an enemy plane.  If both the fighter AND the bomber .50s had the SAME max range (1400-odd yards to the front), AND the same dispersal pattern- then they are identical AND would hit at the same power, right?

Now, I also did this test with the rear guns of a B-17 (which are the same as on the B-26).  The Max range was 1800 yards and change.  Now, it may seem that HTC has artificially extended the range of the guns- BUT... I will try to explain this as I see it.  

The reason that the forward firing guns can only travel 1400 yards and change (to hit a target that is moving away from you at the same speed you are moving), is because they are actually travelling the same distance that the rear guns bullets are travelling to hit a target that is 1800 yards away but moving towards you at the same speed you are moving.  The rear guns also probably hit harder since you are travelling INTO them, thus allowing them to keep more of their energy for going through you, rather than going through the air trying to get to you.  

Now, this doesn't mean that there is NOTHING wrong with buff guns.  I believe that the firing arcs need to be revamped, and that either the gunners should be able to shoot off parts of their own plane or not be able to shoot through their plane to hit you.  I also think that .50s in general hit a bit to hard, but that may be because of HTC's 'all or nothing' damage model, where each round that hits you appears to take away a certain number of 'hit points', and when that total is exhausted you are dead.

WHOS ON FIRST?

[Pei]

Welcome to the mad, bad world of the MA!
remember the inmates run the asylum in there

Chris

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Widewing


Well, I'll tell you, the first few times I logged on in the Main Arena, I found myself getting the hook plenty. First off, my main purpose was to try to stay out of trouble while getting a little experience in that environment. As I'm sure you know, trouble has a way of finding you no matter how careful you are to stay out of the way.

I was staying high, flying fast and avoiding crowds. However, it never fails, no matter how high you climb, there's always some other genius to be found above you. Worse, a long climbout means that you're flying damn slow for a long time. A perfect bounce for pony drivers. All you can do is turn into the attacks while trying to trade altitude for airspeed. This is usually successful if you have only one guy after your ass. However, if there's two or more.... Well, then you're in "deep bandini".  

My first 18 or so sorties showed a net gain of two assists, at the cost of 7 deaths.

I found out some interesting things, such as the La-7 cannot out-turn a C.202. I reefed into a tight lufberry, with the stall horn making a bloody racket, and that damn Macchi still turned a smaller circle. As he began to pull lead, I had to bust out and try to evade. Nope, no such luck, he was too close and the Lavochkin didn't have the suds to pull away.

I now understand why I had so much trouble during my first two days of flying. The reason was simple: I kept switching planes, trying to pick the best one for the anticipated fight. Yet, it always seemed that when I got to the fight, things were not as I expected. Just like the idiot who always shows up at the dinner wearing the wrong suit.

So, I switched sides from Bishops to Rooks, and tried out the Spitfire Mk.IX. It took a few sorties to learn the strengths and weaknesses, during the course of which I was whacked once more (for my 7th trip to the morgue). However, tonight I stayed with the Spit and began to get confortable, managing 7 kills and 5 assists for just 4 deaths, two of those coming right after pulling up the gear and on final approach, all but out of gas (both to Typhoons stooging around the airfield). It's like operating out of a hot LZ. The other two were the result of trying to defend against what seemed like every fighter the Knights had. No chance to get away, so all one can do is make them work real hard for the eventual victory, and do as much damage as possible.

Anyway, I use Widewing as my handle. I saw Ammo tonight, I pulled up off of his left wing in a combat spread formation. We ran across a lone Fw 190, which passed by nose to nose slightly below and to our left. Ammo broke down to the left, and I broke up to the left. The 190 headed down, so Ammo got to him before I could try a deflection shot from above. That guy never had a chance, Ammo was on him in an instant. I expected that he would break up and into us, which is why I went high. However, he tried to run from Ammo's Jug which had the advantage of height, and Ammo split-essed right onto his backside.

I believe that this is gonna be a lot of fun. I'll keep an eye out for you (and the others who frequent this BBS).

My regards,

Widewing

Ahh that was you:)  I wondered if it was the "widewing". Good to see you in the arena's.  If you want to, and see me in any of the arena's, I would be happy to wing up with you. It makes survivability must easier.   Also if you like, come join as a guest in a Fri night or Saturday afternoon TOD event. It is a historical based event with an axis and allied sides. It is objective based with limited or no radar. Its a blast widewing. The 56th FG or any of the participating squads would be glad to have you.



ammo

[fats]

Widewing:

1: Each player's FE decides if that person's plane is involved in a collision and then the a/c receives damage. The reason for this setup is that no two player sees the sittuation exactly the same. As for your sittuation the enemy probably had already pulled to avoid collision, but the enemy's movements were yet relayed to you due  yours and his ping to the server combined and dislayed him flying straight into you on your FE.


--- Tac: ---
I think the issue here is your connect vs the other guy's connect. If both are good, you will ram into his parts. If your FE says that you miss the wreckage because his FE didnt tell your FE that his wing just flew through your plane then your FE wont realize you hit his wreckage. Thus, no damage.
--- end ---

In short - wrong. The enemie's FE doesn't ever tell your FE anything about collisions nor does yours tell the others' FEs. Detecting wether _you_ are involved in a collision is all done by your FE, with sorts of messages sent to the server after the fact ( collision detected ). Then server sends the other players a packet that tells the others' FEs to display a ball of fire instead of a plane, indistinguishable from the effect of MG/cannon fire.

The combined ping is the reason why the person who did not collide, sees the enemy suddenly explode in his six view. Which also makes people think: "Wow! I got in some really good strikes, must have hit the fuel tank or sn1p3r3d th3 pil0t." They never realize their cannon fire was meaningless, and that the other guy dweebed it.

HTC should make distinct kill messages to lessen the grief some people flying the game seem to suffer over collisions. Flag planes that get their parts shed by the collision detection algorithm. Once it is determined the plane to be dead display "XXXX collided" instead of "victory #1 by such pilot" ( haven't played in a while so no idea what  the messages look like these days ), perhaps keep damage totals on a plane caused by MG/cannon and collision and use that to determine the message to display. This in turn should lessen the complaints of "I never win a HO , I always get rammed and the other guy never dies in a collision." People would be able to see for them selves that others collide as well.

WB used to have a similar problem with the message: "You collided" when one's FE detected a collision. The game directly blamed the player for colliding.


// fats

[Tac]

really? thats interesting.

i only die from hitting plane parts when i kill at very close range anyway, thats why the 262 for me is the king of wreck deaths.

[airspro]

book url at amazon

I find rereading my books that I read in my youth , "before" I started flying online start to make a lot more sense .


And to all of you that think that htc has modeled the guns diferant , EVEN after they have said they have NOt .

 START READING , AND LEARN

[fats]

Tac:

I don't know wether AH includes plane parts that have been shed into the list of itemts to test for collision. WB didn't, but a lot has improved since. Even if AH did include the debrii, collision detection against them would still be performed by your FE solely and only the results ( you in turn ripping a wing off for example ) would be relayed to others.


// fats

[Blue Mako]

Just a note on bullet travel:

If you fire a bullet forward, it's speed through the air is the speed of the bullet coming out of the barrel PLUS the speed of your plane.

If you fire a bullet backwards, it's speed through the air is the speed of the bullet coming out of the barrel MINUS the speed of your plane.

Thus a bullet fired backwards is travelling at a lower speed through the air.  It thus has a lower drag and will not lose as much kinetic energy as a bullet fired forwards.  Also, if you fire at a target approaching you the impact velocity is the speed of te bullet PLUS the speed of the plane approaching.

[-lynx-]

The reason that the forward firing guns can only travel 1400 yards and change (to hit a target that is moving away from you at the same speed you are moving), is because they are actually travelling the same distance that the rear guns bullets are travelling to hit a target that is 1800 yards away but moving towards you at the same speed you are moving. The rear guns also probably hit harder since you are travelling INTO them, thus allowing them to keep more of their energy for going through you, rather than going through the air trying to get to you.

Urchin - check your calcs, they don't hold water. Since speed is squared in the calc of kinetic energy (hitting power), a forward firing MG of a B17 travelling at, say, 250kts will hit ~30% harder than the very same MG fired from the tail and will travel further too.

In any case, hitting anything manoeuvring at 1,000+ yards from a moving plane buff is plain sci-fi. HT knows that, Pyro knows that. But since lone buff didn't stand a chance against a fighter in WW2 no one would fly them if everything was "realistic" hence  "gaming concessions" which are very difficult to get "right"

[Tac]

mako, a buffs foward firing guns have the same punch as its rear guns, get a b26 and shoot the nose turret at a fighter thats d1.3 away, flying AWAY from the buff. Your pings will still kill him just as if he was d1.3 behind your buff.

Now try that with a fighter.. you can put 600 rnds in hits on a plane at d1.1 and barely damage it.

[Urchin]

Tac, that is horseshit and you know it.  Hell, you killed me from 850+ yards a couple weeks ago, firing 4 .50 calibers.  I'm not sure how many rounds landed, but it couldn't have been a whole helluva lot at 850+ yards.  Is it really possible that it takes 10 or so .50 rounds to blow off someones wing at 850 yards, yet 600 to do the same thing at 1100?  

Also, I didn't DO any calculations as far as range and damage and stuff.  I'm not a math major, I'm as far from mathematically inclined as you can be.  It just seemed to be common sense that if something is moving at the same speed you are (like the bullseye does in .target mode) then you will be able to hit it from farther away if it is behind you than if it is in front of you.

Oh, and Lynx, check the post above yours if you'd like to argue about the range and hitting power.   Blue Mako's arguments mean as much to me as your average conversation in Mandarin, but they seem to disagree with yours.

[Tac]

Urchin that ta152 you were in was pulling away fast, and I fired almost all of my ammo at you at that range. 2000 rnds, of which I bet 800 or so mustve hit. You were a bright glowing planeform for quite a while until I saw smoke and you tumbling down. After you went down I was with less 50 cal than cannon. And just so you know, that was a very rare kill for me. I usually hit stuff and dont even damage it beyond d700.

A buff needs only to hit with 10 or 20 rnds at that range to smack you.

Fiter 50 cals do kill at long range, but you need a toejamload of hits for that.