Author Topic: Kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach... (Read 1443 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **on:** January 15, 2002, 05:34:31 AM »

Will get you in legal trouble for hurting/killing the baby. Right?

Well the point is that this baby was killed by an outsider and this makes it different than an abortion. Right?

Well what are the fathers rights? Can he sue the mother if she has an abortion without his support/agreemet that then kills his child? Can he?

Do men have any rights?

Wotan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2002, 06:09:13 AM »

nice troll ...............

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2002, 06:36:47 AM »

We have the right to pay child support.

-SW

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2002, 07:04:59 AM »

Its not a troll, its just looking at the abortion issue from an unexplored and marginalized viewpoint, the Father's, its just as much his child as the mothers.

So what are the Father's rights here?

Or consider this:

If Father wants abortion and Mother refuses to have abortion, then the fathers legal/financial obligations are voided? What you think of this?

*READ THIS READ THIS*

For the record: (before the liberals attack me and so the conservatives can attack me

, IM NEITHER)

I support abortion up to a certain time limit very early in the pregnancy (maybe 3 months), after this time you carry the child to term unless it poses a serious health risk to the mother. In my view the life of the adult parent is more important/valuable than a baby, the parent can have other kids and thus continue the genetic line.

aknimitz · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2002, 08:21:24 AM »

At this point in time, the father of the child has no rights regarding an abortion. The Supremes (Supreme Court) has specifically stated that the decision for an abortion rests on the shoulders of the mother, and the mother alone. The father has no input. Totally horseshit imho.

ANd yes, there is a crime for kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach, although many factors play into what type of crime would be charged. If the baby dies as a result, welll, did the attack know she was pregnant? Did he act with the intent to kill the baby or with reckless disregard for the babies life? How far along was the baby, 1 mos? 8 mos? Crimes charged can range from Murder -> Negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter.

And yes, Wulfe is right, us men have the right to pay a ridiculous amount of child support. In most cases its deserving, but in many its damn criminal. But thats another story

Nim

skernsk · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2002, 08:48:08 AM »

Well this issue has potential to get "hot". I agree that if you kick a woman in the stomach you should be charged. Whether she is pregnant or not! As for murder .... it is considered a fetus and not a person until it takes its first breath how can you be charges with murder? This seems a large loophole for scum errr I mean Lawyers to exploit.

As for father's rights. It is up to the woman to decide if she wants have an abortion. Can you imagine if she wanted to keep the baby and the father did not?? I guess he would just kick her in the stomach.......

capt. apathy · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2002, 09:03:51 AM »

The women has all the rights and decisions.
The father has no rights.
The baby/fetus has no rights.
The baby’s life and the father’s wallet are both at the mercy of her hormone charged whim.

aknimitz · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2002, 09:13:14 AM »

hehe Skernsk, not quite

I'll be honest I've forgotten the case law so I am kinda shootin' from the hip here ... You are kinda right. Here is the definition of a Human Being as I remember it (okay okay, I found my CrimLaw notes):

1. At common law, a fetus must be born alive to be considered a “human being” within the meaning of that term for the criminal statute.
2. There is a trend towards pushing the definition to include viable fetuses, however, all courts agree that the changes must be made by the legislature, and not the courts.

Keep in mind this is the common law, many (and in fact most) states have changed the elements to common law crimes. For example, at common law, one of the elements of burglary was that it must occur at night. Needless to say, most states have changed that so that burglarly can occur during the day as well.

So it looks like I might have misspoke in my previous post. To my knowledge, the trend toward getting a viable fetus has not officially been adopted by any State. But boy I sure thought I remembered reading some cases about Murder convictions based on the killing of a fetus. I guess I was wrong

Nim

Sandman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2002, 09:18:51 AM »

Nimitz, wrt to the Supreme Court position, what's the alternative?

Certainly, the father should have some input in the decision, but ultimately control of the womb belongs to the mother, doesn't it?

I think it's one of those areas where the court should just stay out of it. It's the woman's body after all. The aches, the pain, the outright damage caused by the pregnancy are hers to bear alone. Until we men can share the physical burden of a pregnancy, we shouldn't expect to have any control of it.

The answer is simple. Marry a woman that wants to have your children. If she doesn't, find another (if that's your sole motivation for marriage).

As for the crime of injuring a fetus, the law isn't inconsistent. The woman has the right to control her own womb. If you violate that right and injure the fetus, you have committed a crime. If she decides to terminate the pregnancy, again it's her womb and it's within her right to do so. Same as Nimitz... I'm shooting from the hip here.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2002, 09:19:23 AM »

Good discussion so far fellas, keep it comming especially the legal experts.

Thanks!

aknimitz · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2002, 09:45:32 AM »

Hmm...interesting Sandman. But keep this in mind ... Abortions are legal yes, but not at viability. If the fetus is viable (capable of living on its own outside the womb) abortions are not possible. 6 months is usually the cut-off for abortions. Abortions are possible AFTER viability only if the mother's life/health is in jeopardy. So perhaps the law isnt so inconsistent after all?

WRT Supreme Court ... the argument exists that the father has just as much interest in the fetus as the mother. After all, he is 1/2 the creator. I briefly looked for some case law, but couldnt find what I was looking for and dont have the time right now to look any deeper. But, I did find this, which althought not exactly on point, does provide some insight as to the Court's thinking:

Coe v. Cook County (7th Circuit)
In establishing the constitutional right of a woman to have an abortion without having to notify the father, the United States Supreme Court necessarily as well as explicitly weighed the woman's interest in reproductive freedom against the man's interest in potential paternity, and found the former interest to be the weightier. Inasmuch as it is the woman who physically bears the child and who is the more directly and immediately affected by the pregnancy, as between the two, the man and the woman, the balance weighs in her favor.

Also, ...
Coe v. Cook County
If a fetus's right to life were deemed to outweigh the pregnant woman's interest in being allowed to make the choice for abortion without being impeded by the father of the fetus, the United States Supreme Court would not have forbidden the states to require such notification. The life, liberty, and property that the due process clauses protect are rights of persons, and the courts have decided that a fetus is not a person within the meaning of these clauses

Nim

fd ski · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:05:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
The women has all the rights and decisions.
The father has no rights.
The baby/fetus has no rights.
The baby’s life and the father’s wallet are both at the mercy of her hormone charged whim.

And that's something that one should consider before sticking his wee wee into the particular female.

As someone who will be a father in 4 months, i believe that it is totally woman's decision. I can make a suggestion, but final call belongs to her. Thankfully, it appears that our baby is growing healthy, so we don't have to deal with those issues...

Udie at Work · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:18:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by fd ski

And that's something that one should consider before sticking his wee wee into the particular female.

As someone who will be a father in 4 months, i believe that it is totally woman's decision. I can make a suggestion, but final call belongs to her. Thankfully, it appears that our baby is growing healthy, so we don't have to deal with those issues...

What about her responsibility for spreading her legs to let the wee wee in? It is a two way street in most cases.

Here's a form of abortion I might support. Woman goes to get baby removed from the womb, they should take the womb with the baby so she can murder no more inocent life.

Any body who would suck the brains out of a baby in the mothers womb I hope will find a nice flesh boiling spot in Hell right next to Mohamed Atta and his crew. I can't believe anybody would defend sucking the brains out of a live human being in what is supposed to be a "safe place" ie. it's mother's womb.

absolutely disgusting....

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:19:52 AM »

Does anyone have statistics on why people have abortions?

What % is for the mothers health?

What % is for an unhealthy baby?

What % is for the mothers unwilligness to to become a parent?

What % is for financial reasons?

etc.

So there is a legal time limit for abortions, you mention 6 months?
Good I support a time limit, but id like it a bit earlier.

Thanks!

midnight Target · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2002, 10:29:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Udie at Work

What about her responsibility for spreading her legs to let the wee wee in? It is a two way street in most cases.

Here's a form of abortion I might support. Woman goes to get baby removed from the womb, they should take the womb with the baby so she can murder no more inocent life.

Any body who would suck the brains out of a baby in the mothers womb I hope will find a nice flesh boiling spot in Hell right next to Mohamed Atta and his crew. I can't believe anybody would defend sucking the brains out of a live human being in what is supposed to be a "safe place" ie. it's mother's womb.

absolutely disgusting....

The trouble here Udie is that your definition of "Life" might differ from some other well meaning persons. Where does life begin?

Is a sperm a human? Why not? An egg?
Is a fertalized Egg? Why? Before or after attachment to the uterine wall?
How about at the 2 cell stage? 4 cell stage? Most zygotes are at 8 to 16 cells before they even settle into the uterus. How about then?

It is not a black and white issue and it causes so much pain and suffering because the proponents of each side are so adament. Personaly I feel that only women should be voting on abortion laws.