Lets Talk About Lift Vector ...

[aknimitz]

Ok, so I was doing a little reading in Shaw's book after Andy Bush made it clear I had no clue about much of the terminology.  I have been learning quite a bit, and now I have a question.

Rolling scissors and Lift Vectory

Do I want my lift vector pointed at the enemy as quickly and often as possible during a rolling scissor?  Pointed slightly behind the enemy?  I assume if I have my lift vector pointed directly at the enemy, that is a pure pursuit, behind is a lag, and in front of would be lead?  

Ok, so in a rolling scissor, it seems to make sense having read what Shaw had to say and looking at his diagrams that in order to win, your lift vector must be pointed at the enemy, or slightly behind.  This facilitates an overshoot with the use of manifold and gets a guns solution.  I wanna know what the experts here have to say on this.  Step right up, speak your mind, educate me.  Thanks!

Nim

[Horn]

Yeah, I would like to hear about this, too.

I've been told to imagine lift vector as akin to a rod exiting the top of the head, but I've got Shaw's book also and the advice I was given doesn't seem right when compared w/ his diagrams...any help appreciated!

dh

[Andy Bush]

Shaw gives two examples. One (the first one in the book) is a relatively simple series of competing barrel rolls where each opponent is trying to force the other "ahead" along the axis of the roll. In this maneuver, the lift vectors tend to be oriented slightly behind...as in "pulling to the high six".

The second example is PhD level BFM. I don't think I ever saw one like this in real life. Shaw's text is well written and is easy to follow. In this maneuver, the lift vector placement varies as the spatial relationship between the two fighters evolves. For this maneuver to flow as Shaw depicts would take two pilots who seriously understand BFM.

It may be possible to fly something like the first example in a flight sim. If the pilots were only using snap views, I would expect the level of difficulty to be pretty high. Padlock might allow the maneuver to be flown a little easier. The external player to target view would be the easiest to manage, I think...and that would go for the second example also.

Another equally important aspect of these maneuvers is that it takes a fairly healthy energy capability to be able to stay in the maneuver for more than a couple of cycles...I'm not sure planes like those in AH could hack the second maneuver...they just couldn't get over the top in the manner that is necessary to keep pressure on the opponent.

When visualizing this maneuver, keep in mind that the other aircraft is seldom, if ever, flying in a straight line...and therefore  neither are you. You know those roller coasters that go inverted in a long corkscrew type of path? That is what this maneuver is like. A rolling, pulling maneuver that is often flown right on the AOA limiter at full power.

Andy

[aknimitz]

Thanks Andy,

I have several film clips of me in a rolling scissor and you are right, looks much like a roller coaster.  My question is this:  Is my goal in trying to prevail in a rolling scissor to keep my lift vector pointed behind the nme as quickly as possible and often as possible?  

Nim

[Andy Bush]

Originally posted by aknimitz
Thanks Andy,

IMy question is this:  Is my goal...to keep my lift vector pointed behind the nme as quickly as possible and often as possible?  

Nim

Nim

In Shaw's first example, yes. The rolling scissors is just a 3D flat scissors as far as the end objective is concerned. Your are trying to "push" the bandit in front of your 3/9 line so you can shoot him. Of course, he's trying to do the same to you.

By orienting your lift vector behind the bandit, you use geometry to achieve a relative speed reduction. Your actual indicated speed may not decrease much, but your speed relative to the bandit drops off more quickly if you get your flight path (lift vector) behind his.

Andy

[Vector]

Well nimitz, I'd talk about lift with you, but I don't know about it too much... eh eh I'm sooo funny..

[humble]

I don't pretend to really understand all of this as well as I should...I've always assumed that a combination of pointing the lift vector behind the bogie combined with managing energy to the lowest level consistant with completing the manuver in question was the key. I always have acted under the impression that scubbing excess energy was an equal component to lift vector in the equation...If I'm reading your post correctly Andy...you want to fly the "longer road" and maintain an equal or higher "total E level" by traveling a greater distance with less forward movement???.....hehe now I'm really confused:o

[Andy Bush]

humble

Yes...that's another way to look at it.

Also, by maneuvering to the "high six", you are flying lag pursuit and in doing so are helping to keep aspect/angle off under control.

But, the heart of the matter is that you are trying to maneuver behind the other guy's 3/9 line...and therefore push him out front.

Andy