Author Topic: Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945  (Read 421 times)

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« on: January 16, 2002, 01:11:42 PM »
anyone have any good info on this?

I have some good links but am interested in the airforces the Soviets had 3 air armies and I have ok info on them. I looking for ija stuff and a period war map of Manchuria.

Any help would be appreciated.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2002, 06:59:58 PM »
Let me see what i can dig up. Why? btw

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2002, 08:09:53 PM »
Ihave just what u nead:)

Call me tonight I will offline so you can get through, or e mail me I will check my E mail at 9 to 9:30 pacific time.

Offline K West

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1445
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2002, 08:10:27 PM »
See if you can find these online:
 
"August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria," LTC David M. Glantz: 1983

"August Storm: Soviet Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945," LTC David M.Glantz: 1983



I came close: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/CSIPUBS/

(a LOT of good stuff there)

 DO you know anyone who has access to the library at the North Texas University? They have it. Or maybe look for those locally to you.

But online info is hard to find as you must know by now :)

  Westy

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2002, 09:23:48 AM »
Brady sorry mate was gone most of last night. I didn't recheck my post till now.

I will get with ya later tonight :)

I was hopin to come up with a terrain map.

I like ija/ijn planes I just dont care for island hopin blue ones and I read  some stuff a while bac that the Soviet invasion of manchuria was being used by nato as a model for the possible invasion of western europe.

I dont think any game has touched on that region yet and apparently it was massive in scale.

I want to know what oob was in terms of aircraft to see if it would be viable for ah.

Hell from the scale it would make a good ma terrain with plenty of vbases and flat to mountainous terrain (canyon fighting) :)

i do know the il4 was used quite a bit so i dont know how accurate the planeset could be for a tod/scenario but as a main map it would rock. Hope someone at htc would consider a manchurian terrain for the main  :)

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2002, 09:29:49 AM »
This may be usefull

http://www.danford.net/japan.htm

And this isn't very relevant; but of possible general interest:

http://www.pelzigplatz.f2s.com/index.html

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2002, 03:03:55 PM »
S! Wotan

Not a real balanced scenario Wotan.

Josef Stalin 3 Tanks with 122mm guns versus Type 97 light tanks with 37mm guns... ;)

Type 97 Nate Fighters versus La-7`s...

The Japanese Manchurian Army had been largely stripped of all its good troops and aircraft.  By the time the Soviets rolled in, they were outnumbered, and in obsolete equipment.  

The Soviets just rolled over them.

On the other hand if we ever get the aircraft and tanks to simulate it, the 1939 Khalkin Gol war between Japan and the Soviet Union was  a really interesting situation.

Marshal Zhukov`s first battle.

I-16`s and I-153`s versus Nates.  Tanks were mostly T-26`s with 45mm guns on the Soviet side versus the same tanks as in 1945 on the Japanese side.

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2002, 03:07:57 PM »
A good scenario would be the Dogfight over Hungary, with P38J's (they were escorting Bombers..we could use L's) vs Hungarian 109G6's.  Theres a good story about it in Aviation History March 2001 edition.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2002, 07:36:01 PM »
Buzzbait, prety much summed it up Wotan, I have unit ID's for the Japanese, and a prety good map, the Russians just annilated them, 1.5 million Russians aganst 1 million Japanese, they took 500,000 prisioners! mostly rounded up after the surender,I wonder how many of those poor bastards got to go home home.They actualy fought untill Sept. 1. Some sources claim that as many as 1,500 Japanese aircraft were in theater, but these like the Army ground units were not for the most part 1st class, those units having been pulled back to the home islands for the expected invasion. The Russian attack aganst an area the size of wester Europe was wonderfully exicuted, using crack troops from the war aganst Germany. The attack aganst the japanese was prety much a compleate suprise, they had no time to transfer units and even had they had the time I doubt they would of striped the home Islaneds for this pourpous, this was the largest defeat suffered by the Japanese army in the entire war.One book I have says the Kwanchung Army had only 50 combat aircraft at it's disposal( this army was in the central part of manchuria)

  Of interest howeaver at least insomuch as you are thinking, is the attacka ganst the kuriels which ocured at this time, their was very bitter and heavy fighting In the area, and although I am having problems finding Info on what air units were involved on the Japanese side( I have the Ground units and their were armored units involved on the Japanese side). The very fact that these islands are Just N of the main Japanese home islands would indacate a likely presence of some more front line aircraft.

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Soviet invasion of Manchuria 1945
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2002, 08:42:18 PM »
vv brady i know the ground oob and the russian air army oob im lookin fer ijaaf

The russian broke through using their t34s but the avenues of attack are narrow

Quote
John Erickson states,

         "....the Soviet Manchurian campaign in 1945 most
     closely approaches in style and scope what the Soviet
     command presently envisages in the way of high-speed
     ground operations--the speed of the advance, high speed
     movement along several axes without undue attention
     being paid to open flanks, the logistics problems of
     maintaining strong armoured columns and the employment
     of airborne forces in the full 'depth' of the
     theatre....As  an  example  of  the  Soviet
     blitzkreig....the Far Eastern campaign is a much more
     realistic 'model' than the majority of the operations
     in the European theatre during the period 1941-45."


This is what caught my attention. At the beginning of the operation even the Soviets didn't envision how well it actually went.

there were 11 combined-arms armies, one tank army and three air armies on the soviet side

Russian Army fielded 1,577,725 men, 26,137 guns and mortars, and 5,556 tanks and self-propelled artillery pieces. The Air Force possessed 3,800 aircraft while the Soviet Navy (Pacific Fleet and Amur River flotilla) had distinct superiority on the seas (600 fighting ships as touted by Gorelov) and an additional 1500 A/C.  This vast array of men and arms gave the Russians a 2.2:1 ratio advantage in men, 4.8:1 in artillery and tanks and a 2:1 advantage in aircraft.

In early July 1945, the Kwangtung Army was expanded from 11 infantry divisions to more than 24 divisions. Unfortunately for the Kwangtung Army, more than one-fourth of its entire combat force was mobilized only ten days prior to the Soviet offensive (8 of 24 divisions and 7 of 9 brigades).

By August 1945, the Kwantury Army had pieced together a combat force of 1,155 tanks (largest 37mm), 5,360 guns (largets 57 mm) and 1,800 aircraft. Most of it was junk.

The japaneese had planned to fight  delaying actions not to enter into a pitched battle. But they didn't realize the Russians had already been building up its force and had under estimated its size. They also had not completed fortifications.

However the routes of attack by the russians on all 3 fronts were small and predicted. Also the russians never worried about being flanked they simply drove through. The japaneese offered little resistance.

The Trans-Baikal Front represented 41.4% of the total forces fielded by the Soviets:  654,040 men formed one tank army,
four combined-arms armies, one Soviet-Mongolian Cavalry-Mechanized Group, and an air army.

Quote
The Soviet's thrust in western Manchuria would be significantly hindered if the Japanese defenders occupied the key passes in the Grand Khinghan Mountains or if the long supply train failed to keep pace with the rapid pace of the tank and mechanized columns


At the start it wasn't as clear cut as it turned out. The japaneese made numerous strategic and tactical errors. The outcome would have been a Russian victory theres no doudt.

My point is a terrain map with mountains and mountain  passes,  plains, desert and coastal areas that is somewhat real would be fun to play on.

As for a scenario the circumstances the ija is in here is no worse or better then it was for germany near the end of '45.

The russians had a 2.2/1 advantage in aircraft but like the lw during big week the ijaaf would not engage the entire force but in the frame work of "delaying actions" would seek out areas of local air superiority in which to attack/defend. Victory conditions would be set just like any other. We dont have the variety of aircraft in ah to do anything like this but as a terrain it would be fun.

The Russians pulled off some amazing stuff and had some luck as well. There weren't that many js3's chargin through the trans-baikl then through the mongolin desert then through the Grand Khinghan Mountains.

Heres a brief but good write-up
Manchuria 1945