Author Topic: Conservation of energy and pursuit tactics (Read 1842 times)

Lephturn · « **Reply #30 on:** February 04, 2001, 07:17:00 AM »

Rickenbacker,

I think this has a lot to do with aerodynamic efficiency of the airframe in combination with the efficiency of the prop at various speeds. I think the combination of those two factors lead to this effect. What I mean is, I think your prop/airframe combination is better at turning excess power into energy (alt or speed) at higher speeds. The result is that you can increase your energy faster when the plane is at a higher speed.

The efficiency of the engine at different altitudes is not really the issue here IMHO, although it certainly does factor into the overall equasion. Some planes get a nice boost of power when the second stage turbo kicks in at a certain altitude, so a smart pilot will factor that knowledge into the equasion as well.

Here is something for you to try, just to see the effect. This is something I was advised to do back in WB 1.01 by my amazing squad mates. Take a Pony, and set your auto-trim for speed to 325. Now, when you get a co-e enemy chasing you, just engage auto-speed and watch what happens. The Pony will out-climb many "better climbing" airplanes if it climbs at that speed. I use the same trick in the Jug. Granted, this isn't maximum "climb", as my altitude is not going to go up that fast; however, my overall energy state (altitude or Potential Energy/PE and speed or Kinetic Energy/KE combined) will increase at a higher rate than in a low speed climb.

Badboy,

Thanks for all the great work! I look forward to seeing those numbers when you get them done. The AH community thanks you!

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Lephturn · « **Reply #31 on:** February 04, 2001, 12:45:00 PM »

<punt> This deserves to be higher up on the list than lots of those other posts full of... well... stuff. <G>

Nash · « **Reply #32 on:** February 04, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »

Yeah I agree... That was a great article Badboy. I'm looking forward to seeing it applied to AH. Leph's Jug/Niki comparison suggestion would be very interesting.

easymo · « **Reply #33 on:** February 04, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »

I have a better one. Try turning a nik with a zeke. Then try to run. No wep, and notoriously slow, the zeke will catch you in the short dash.

This drove me crazy after they cut the acceleration on the nik. Finally it dawned on me, the zeke wasn't bleeding E in the tight turn. I was. Solution. Trim the nik through the turn. These aren't real planes, trim makes a huge difference, in the game.

Lephturn · « **Reply #34 on:** February 04, 2001, 02:14:00 PM »

Yeah, the Zeke is "slow", but it is "quick".

The Zeke's top speed is not very high, but it is very light. Because of it's light weight it is actually a pretty good accelerator from low speeds. Don't try to run from it from a low speed start, or it WILL catch you in the short term. Any Hog or Jug driver who gets slow with a Zeke better have some separation before trying to dive away! Although the Zeke will perform badly at high speed, the short-term acceleration is still pretty good, and it will catch the heavier planes for a short time.

Hey easymo... are you using combat trim? Just wondering. I think the combat trim negates much of the advantage that the manual trim tricks used to give you, but maybe I'm wrong.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

easymo · « **Reply #35 on:** February 04, 2001, 03:12:00 PM »

Leph. Come into H2H we will find out

Lephturn · « **Reply #36 on:** February 04, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »

easymo,

I don't get much personal time to spend online... so when I do get it I tend to spend it in the main. Between my very busy job and my duties as a trainer, I'm a busy boy. However, I have been meaning to check out H2H sometime just so I can answer questions about it. I'll see if I can find you around.

Still, if you have a feeling one way or the other, why don't you post it? Anybody else have an opinion on manual vs. combat trim?

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

easymo · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »

FWIW I use manual trim.

bertie · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2001, 07:47:00 PM »

Combat trim here. (Trim should not affect anything except stick forces and therefore it should not change E retention or turn performance.)

Suave1 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2001, 07:16:00 AM »

So the quickest route between two co-alt points in the air is not a straight line ?

Nath-BDP · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2001, 02:09:00 PM »

No point in using manual trim when you have combat trim that does the job for you in 2 keypress and you don't have to keep it ON.

Basically, I hit combat trim when I need my aircraft to be trimmed, and hit it again and again and again and again, but never leave it on.

------------------
Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 02-05-2001).]

Biggles · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2001, 05:31:00 PM »

Seems that plane 2 (the chaser) is faster during both the down and up line. Could the trade-off, then, be that extra speed gained outweighs the angle-of-flight penalty? Not just a question of E, but one of simple geometry? Maybe the trick is to gain the speed during the descent, but to set the angle of the ascent back to the beginning altitude to arrive back at the original airspeed and altitude immediately after leveling out?

[This message has been edited by Biggles (edited 02-05-2001).]

Vulcan · « **Reply #42 on:** February 05, 2001, 06:03:00 PM »

Interesting stuff Badboy. I found this works in the Tiffie really well, although until now hadn't figured out why.

Going into even a co-alt fight I unload 2k-5k worth of alt to crank the tiffie up and always seem to come out better. Going co-alt flat never seems to work well.

IE - in a co-alt fight with a yak if i merge level, post merge the yak is always better off. If I dive about 20 degrees nose down before the merge to grab speed, and the yak does the same, I always come out better off (eg, if we both go vertical post merge, in the first instance the yak usually has me, in the second I have him).

Badboy · « **Reply #43 on:** February 05, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Suave1:
So the quickest route between two co-alt points in the air is not a straight line ?

Short answer… No it isn’t.

Of course the shortest route is a straight line, but it isn’t always the quickest

If you wanted to get from point A at 5000ft to point B 200 miles away at the same altitude, in the shortest possible time, it would make sense to climb to an altitude where your true airspeed is faster. It follows that you would want to get to that altitude with as much energy as possible, in the shortest time possible, and a best energy transfer climb would help. If you were starting from low speed, it would also pay to accelerate as quickly as possible, and that means unloading. So the quickest route between those two co-alt points could well involve an initial dive and climb schedule.

I guess everyone has heard the phrase:

“The shortest distance between two points is a straight line”?

That phrase works nicely for two dimensional geometry, but when you get into 3D, that phrase can sting you in the tail.

Take a look at the box in this diagram…

There is a point at the center of each end of the box, 1” up from the bottom at one end, and 1” down from the top at the other. To get from one end to the other you must remain in contact with the surface of the box. With that in mind, what is the shortest distance from one point to the other?

Now, when I see the first correct answer, I’ll explain what that has to do with air combat

Badboy

[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 02-05-2001).]

SKurj · « **Reply #44 on:** February 05, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »

39.........

[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 02-05-2001).]

Author Topic: Conservation of energy and pursuit tactics (Read 1842 times)

bertie

Nath-BDP