Things that make you go HMMMM.

[Keez]

Sorry I make two posts after eachother, just had to chip in here....  

Originally posted by Tumor

Now, let me make a perfect example.  My grandfather is a STAUNCH Democrat (80).  He has very high morals (wierd considering he's never been in a church and isn't even sure there is a god),
(...)

Ok what is weird about that?

I dont believe in a god. I was raised religious, but I have seen too much crap in my not-so-long life to believe in a god because

A - If there would be a god, the trouble I have seen, mine and others, would not have happened.

B - If god does excist he either doesnt care about it, or he is unable to do something about it. I dont need either of those gods.

Yet I have high morals too. Please explain to me why you need to be a christian to have morals? Altough I am sure you didn't mean it that way, it sounded disrepecting.

[Kieran]

I like Jimmy Carter, and he is the last Democratic President I have respect for. But he was somewhat of a dick because he weakened our military at a time when it didn't really need to be weakened. His inability to deal with Iran when our hostages were taken is illustrative of how America allowed itself to be pushed around by terrorists (and I might add is the first time in my knowledge of history Americans allowed hostages to be held for so long). He did this in the interests of peace, but he only showed terrorists America could be pushed around. It did us more harm than good.

[Dago]

Man alive, this is one amusing thread.

Saying that someone knows what is going on because they were in the Army?  LOL, yes, that recognizes the fact that every single Private is kept in the loop of all political, back channel and domestic agendas is pretty funny.

Stating that because someone reads the paper or watches TV news so they know what is going on is even funnier.  God knows they always get it exactly right, they have all the correct info, never put a slant on anything. RIGHT.

I do recognize is this, that if someone becomes president, they are probably not a completly upstanding person of the highest moral value.  I also recognize that the media is very often slanted, not always in possesion of all the true facts, and in fact often just plain wrong.

I do not believe that we necessarily always have a great need to know that everything happening in our government when it might possibly effect national security.

I do believe Carter meant well, but also did terrific damage to our country.  I strongly believe the Clinton had less moral character than nearly any president in our countries history.  His actions probably deserved jail time, certainly more that adulation.  AND he did do tremendous damage out our intelligence community and military.

I think Reagan had what he believed was the countries best interests at heart, and he made some mistakes in his drive to serve our country.

Thats my opinion, and it is with gratitude that I recognize my ability to have my own opinion and state it, and know that it is because so many great men served our country from the beginning of our nation through today that gives me the rights I enjoy.

Dago

[ispar]

Amazing. More of the ridiculous drivel from right and left about how the other side is evil, is running some sort of conspiracy, accusations of hideous crimes against humanity. Who are the criminals here? They didn't vote themselves into office.

Let's see. From the right we have accusations that the leftist-liberal limp-wristed wimps (a ridiculous accusation and choice of epithets if I ever heard one) have consistently set up bad economies for Republican presidents, that are trying to push socialism on us (ridiculous, if you'd pay attention to where Democrats really tend to stand on political spectrum - and it's definitely center-left), and have weak morals and no spine. The last accusation is, of course, ridiculous as well. Democrats have no more or less morals overall than their Republican counterparts, and what politicians have morals usually choose to ignore them. The implication that not going to church or being Christian implies low morals is a classic roadkill conservative line. I have a friend who happens to be an atheist Republican. I wonder if he knows how Bush Sr.'s administration regarded Atheism?

From the left, we have accusations the rightist conservative lemmings (just as silly; I've heard the same comparison made to liberals) consistently are the ones who commit crimes against other peoples and nations, be it by bombing them, invading them, deprivingly them of resources, or what have you. The reality is that neither right nor left in this country has a good record here. The Republican administrations have been consistently left the slack with tense situations that arose during Democratic administrations. If they deal with that in the only way that Republicans seem to consistently like, who's really to blame? After all, what did you expect? We know about the military operations initiated by the Republican administrations: Libya, Iran, Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom. But what's on the Democratic slate? Vietnam (it was Kennedy who sent in the advisors and Johnson who sent in the troops, remember), Bosnia, Desert Fox (an operation that military analysts tend to agree was mostly ineffective), and Kosovo, which is an entirely seperate discussion.

Remember that it was Nixon who pulled the troops out of Vietnam (a simplification, I know). For the record, this was not to further the cause of peace, but because of overwhelming public opinion.

The short answer is that no one, and no major political party in this country has a leg to stand on. Heck, most of the minor parties don't either. I'll freely admit that I stand pretty far to the left, but it's a complicated world. I wouldn't vote for Ralph Nader, for example. I don't trust him anymore than I do Clinton, Bush, or Gore. The only thing I can do is try and choose someone that I believe will help not only this country, but the world at large. That someone has not been Reagan. It has not been either Bush. It hasn't been Clinton. But the right person will not come about with the current national or global political and economical situation. The system needs some revising and revitalization from the ground up. Is our system doomed? No, of course not, and I hope it never is. I do not want the USA to fall, I do not want a total restructuring of the world order. I want a world where people understand the fundamental fact about being humans: we simply aren't going to agree on everything. Not even close. A world where people take responsibilty for the fact that "life isn't fair" and do something about it, and where people understand that not only is there a need for self-responsibility but for responsibility for one's fellow man and woman (yes, I hate PC as well. Don't get started).

So why the hell are we trying to lay the blame down one the shoulders of some party or group? This system is our system, in case you've forgotten, and we all have a responsibility for and to it. Forget about trying to pin the bad guy, and focus on improving what we've got. We're never going to find the guy who's ultimately responsible for what's messed up in the world. Why waste our breath? We're going to disagree and fight about things; might as well make sure we're fighting about the important things.

So, to step back from the political slugmatch, I'll look at the important issue at hand. From the standpoint of any American, this is a bad thing. I know that it means there's no dirt to dig up on Clinton - so what? God knows he's got a cemetary's worth of dirt on him. Being liberal doesn't mean I don't want to know how Clinton screwed the country over. But don't take that to mean I want to hear the Republican whines and hints about how we've "not yet to find out all the horrible things he did to this nation." No toejam. I'm waiting with baited breath to find out what Reagan did as well. Because he was no more a great president than Bush or Clinton were.

So, that's that. The irony is that I know I'm going to be flamed big time for this post . Oh well, nothing new there.

Far leftist-liberal, completely unassociated with or enamored in any way of any party in this country, checking out,
-ispar

[Keez]

Ispar that was beautiful. I have a tear in my eye. I wish I could say it like that. Way to go, now let em come back with a reply

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Keez
Sorry I make two posts after eachother, just had to chip in here....  



Ok what is weird about that?

 

  No offense intended, just making an analogy.  Generally speaking, my Grandfather lives his life the way most "christians"  are taught and expected to live.  (My pop was a minister so I have an "idea", not that I agree with it, I just had it crammed down my throat till I was 15).   Where he learned this is beyond me.  Having never been to church, and he only completed the 8th grade (even wierder considering how loaded he his, goes to show the real value of opportunity in this country) which was no joke a one room school house in the boondocks of Arkansas.  (this guy really did walk over 3 miles to school, barefoot in the summer and had to cross a river otw lol, no joke he took me on that walk once..unbelievable).  His moral values are very much in-tune with "christian" beliefs.  But of course this is not limited to christian, the similarities between philosophies and doctrines of various religions may suprise you.   I'll try and clarify better next time.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Keez


I cant believe I read that. When someone finds out that a president has done something dumb, inresponsible, stupid, dangerous, or whatever, you silly Americans always do the same.

The people who voted for the president say that the info comes from the other side, and that it is just meant to make the president look bad.
The people who didnt vote for the guy jump up and down on tables screaming what went wrong.
You Amewicans awe so cute

Now my point of view as a journalist...

The media is often referred to as the guardian of democracy (among other things which I wont mention here ). Reporters, beeing the leeches that we are, always watch every step of every official, hoping that he falls so we have a new item for prime time tv.

This keeps the government in line, the public always knows what the government is doing and if the public doesnt like it, they protest. THIS IS WHAT SEPPERATES US FROM STATES LIKE AFGHANISTAN where people have no say, and any comment on the people leading the country is punished by death or severe butt spanking.

Now what Bush does with that act is limiting the field of view for the media and other researchers, so they can do what they want. Presidents can now not be held accountable for their acts. That is a dangerous thing, as it takes us one step closer to the people you Americans were at war with. Or are at war with, I dont know.

Any person that actually literally says "I think it's a good thing Bush is doing".... well I dont know what to say, I just cant imagine it.

  Oh give me a break.  Journalists in the U.S. are far and away slewed to the left and are anything but unbiased.  IF "Journalists" spent half as much energy watchdogging Democrats this country would be turned upside down.  As for limiting access to information?  Can't say we know or if we need to but guess what....lol   He's NOT LYING TO A COURT about anything.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by ispar

Far leftist-liberal, completely unassociated with or enamored in any way of any party in this country, checking out,
-ispar

Good thing I saw this first.  Point being...your point is moot, therefore why would I bother?

[ispar]

Eh? What point are you trying to make Tumor? The entire point of my post was not to take a position based on party lines. I feel that the politics in this country have degenerated into left/right Democrat/Republican bashing, which is completely counter-productive to solving the problems we are presented with today. The point was that the system we have is on the right track, but it needs work; as it stands the primary motivator for politicians is power and money. Those that don't stoop to the level of constantly trying to discredit or undermine the position of other people or parties tend not to do very well.

Competition and dispute are very important tools, but as it is politics is a restrictive and cutthroat occupation. And we, the public, buy into it! The political situation in this country has become a bloody soap opera, with parties vying only to be on top through "facts" or "accomplishments" that are of very little real value. For example, the Republicans gloat about how "actually, the combined wealth of Democratic congress members is greater than that of the Republicans." Yeah, so? The Democrats wave Social Security and welfare around like some sort of rallying banner, despite the fact that most people really don't know what is actually being done with it, and by whom. I don't believe there are many presidents that have really had any resounding effects on either Social Security or welfare.

We the public have let this get out of hand because most of us are poorly informed and don't really care. We'd rather pay attention to the latest government scandal, and join everyone in despising the Gary Condit of the week. This is where the accusations of conservative and liberal lemmings come in. The fact is, most people do fit this stereotype. They see the party line, and follow it. They make a knee jerk decision based on party alignment, conservatism or liberalism, and leave it at that.

Because of that, we have liberals, who are liberal and tolerant of you as long as you agree with them. But if you don't, you are immediately stigmatized and labeled as intolerant. They don't seem to see the irony in this.

Because of this, we have conservatives who jump on everything as "PC" and wishy-washy. They don't seem to realize that PC comes from the part of the Democratic party that makes up the opposite end of the spectrum from the conservative-christian fundamentalist types. You know, the ones who jump on everything as immoral and ungodly, who get their panties in a twist over "taking God out of schools and government."

From both sides we have people who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives. The vast majority of politics these days is trying to force everyone to live by your rules. News flash people! That's not how we're going to get everyone to get along, because as you can see, people will resist! People do not like to be told that they are living incorrectly. But we are constantly wasting our breath trying to get people to live the way we do, instead of realizing that people are different, instead of trying to find ways to work with the fact that people are going to live in different ways.

So, for example, you don't like homosexuality? Fine. I'm not going to tell you that you have to think it's acceptable. But in return for that, could you show respect to your fellow human beings? Hate the sin, if you must, but please don't interfere in their lives, and I won't interfere in yours. If they're going to hell, it's their business, after all. And if you're going to heaven, that's your business. Please don't prosyletize to me or them. You don't want to hear it from them, and we don't want to hear it from you. Fair's fair.

You see, it's about mutual respect. There's room for that in both conservatism and liberalism. The time has come for a paradigm shift in modern politics. What are we waiting for?
-Ispar

[Tumor]

Well, on almost all points I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I do believe however that seperating yourself from either "side" or party is really worse than whichever you believe are "the bad guys" (for lack of better description..you get my drift).  What congressman are you going to write to in order to have your voice heard?  I do hope you vote because rest assured, if you have no vote (registered) you have no voice.

I guess the point to which I disagree is your focus on politics (parties) as those who are corrupting our system.  Ok maybe not "corrupting, perhaps "hindering" is a better word.  This is IMHO not the case.  I really do believe the overall majority of our politicians are good natured people who really want whats best for our country.  The worst part of our political system is the MEDIA.  I may slam a Democrat now and then, I may badger your average liberal, however I do look at the issues from both sides and make my own decisions.  Were I to listen to the Clinton News Network or FOX (or cod forbid Mark Bureau or Rush Limbaugh radio) like most folks do it's no wonder I'd want to crusade against the "bad guys".  Ya I'm a conservative, I'm even willing to admit that I'm more liberal than....I'd like to admit lol.  Most people are the same way I'd be willing to bet.  Whats bad is slanted reporting.  Journalists are the ones stirring the part into a nasty brew.

[ispar]

Re vote, etc. Well, there's the rub. I find myself in a difficult position there. You're right actually, the system as a whole isn't the problem. Even the parties aren't the problem, in a sense. The problem seems to be with, as you said, the media (be it slanted left or right), with "follow the leader" constituents, and with the emphasis on "king of the hill" style campaigning and rhetoric.

Many people sign themselves up as liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, and then just don't think about it. They don't consider that they don't have to fit into a specific political mold. That's why I refuse to identify myself as Democratic anymore; though I'm most likely to support a Democrat, they still represent plenty of things that I find distasteful. And Republicans do occasionally get something right .

The final thing that bugs me? As I mentioned, the "my way or the highway," "live my way not yours" holier-than-thou debates, discussions, and monologues. It's very rare that you see anything like what you've mentioned in another thread about how you relate to people whose lifestyle is repulsive to you. I'll grant that this is less common in national level decision-making and politics than it is in ideological forums. Liberal or conservative, no one likes to be lectured. I'm guessing this is one of the points on which you concur?

So it's not all doom and gloom, but many things are in need of work.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by weazel
Only if shrub and Nazicroft get their way and block public access to his administrations documents.

What was so great about the drug dealing scum?

Was it his under the table deals with a known terrorist state?

Maybe his propping up that pineapple faced buffons regime?

How about sending the Marines into Beirut on a mission with no real objective and when they got blown to hell turning tail and running like the rat that he is?

Allowing Iranian sponsored terrorists to kidnap and assasinate the CIA station chief in Beirut w/o any response?

Or something to be REAL proud of, bombing children in Libya to "send a message"?

As far as criminals go Raygun and Shrub Sr make Nixon or Clinton look like boy scouts.

Yep, the republican party has a lot to answer for, to bad they're too cowardly to allow their mistakes/crimes to come into the public domain.

How you can call that rat **** scum "great" is beyond me.

Because he was a Republican! Don't you get it yet? Republican good, Democrat bad. Don't confuse the issues with actual facts.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by Tumor
Just more left wing Democrat sponsored liberal drivel designed to do nothing more than bring discredit on the (Republican) Office of the President of the United States.  These people will dig for any tidbit of information they can slew thier direction and make the whole thing look terribly bad.  Sorry guys but you'll have to dig allot deeper.  Post this executive order for people to read rather than rely on some liberal doofus and his/her idea of what it means.  

  Btw, Reagan is already one of the greatest presidents the U.S. has ever had.  So sorry...go sit in the corner and moan about it lol.

It is the administration Republican or Democrat that brings credit or discredit upon its self, not the press that reports it.

[Saurdaukar]

Weazel, are you unemployed?

[weazel]

Why?  

Going to use it for another personal attack?  

It seems to be your standard M.O. when it comes to my posts.

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Weazel, are you unemployed?