Time Limits and Logs

[funkedup]

If we are going to have a time limit rule it needs to be enforced.

And if CMs are going to cut their squaddies a break by closing the log late then they should at least be smart enough to cover it up.  

[-ammo-]

The first post was not very nice so i edited it.

I was the CM, and I stopped the log after they landed, which was 1 minute after tilt called the frame.  I am or will not cover for anybody. The rules are clear on this and has been stated as much on this subject in the CM forum.  The allies won the frame and it doesnt look like the axis losing 2 airframes will make it any worse for them either.

On the insinuation that I am not "smart" enough to "cover" for my squaddies...well the first post I edited covered that.

[Vladd]

Well, the time limits are there to stop people taking the p*ss. If we'd have launched that final strike Funked with no hope of getting our planes back to base by endlog, or the LW had pulled something similar then the airborne units should indeed have been lost.

This was hardly the case on Saturday though. The 56 FG tried to get it's a/c back and was only slightly late, by which time they were in no danger from the Allies whatsoever.

If I'd have been in Sancho's position I'd have been most unhappy if I was ruled arbitarily dead in those circumstances No benefits were gained by the LW and they acted in good faith throughout, so I have no problem with the CMs decision.


Vladd

[Dinger]

Looks like the scores have been changes, so it's a moot point.
The rules are there for a variety of reasons.  It's not merely to prevent late strikes, but to encourage folks to stop fighting and to land.
Finally, the rules have to be the same for everyone.
Whether these pilots acted in good faith is often difficult to judge.  From my perspective, they harried us all the way to the coast -- they should have broken off much sooner.  They didn't seem to care about the time limit.  We had already calculated their time to get home, and we knew that by this cowboy act they'd be over the time limit.  That they were "only one minute" late is attributable to nothing other than their being damn good pilots.
Meanwhile, we had done everything possible to get in on time, including landing with one minute to spare. Had we an extra couple of minutes, we could have really thrashed that target (and maybe killed the 56th while we were at it )
So, sure, we made an effort to get everyone on the ground before the time limit.  Tilt called T+2.00, and we celebrated -- we knew those 109s were down.  And then Ammo announces on CM channel that he'll close the logs after his squaddies land.
We're all entitled to make mistakes.  It is a minor issue: even with losing those two planes, the Allies win, and the 56th FG gets the second-highest squad score of the frame.  Nobody's saying they didn't kick butt.

[funkedup]

I should have put more smilies.  The "smart" comment was an attempt at humor.

This is not a big deal to me.  It's only a game, and only a few points in that game.  I just want the rule to be enforced uniformly in the future.

[funkedup]

Vladd:  Those 109s took a risk (ignoring the time limit) that had a possible reward (destroying 4 Mosquitos).  If you want the reward you have to accept the risk too.  Otherwise it ain't cricket.

We had sufficient forces in the area to destroy those 109s, but we were playing within the rules and trying to land on time, which meant we couldn't attack them.

[Vladd]

Fair point.  I was just concerned that it was becoming a big deal when it shouldn't have been.

I do agree though that it would be best if ambiguity was removed from the occasion in the future - either by the CMs enforcing the deadline rigidly or both COs deciding in advance to allow some leeway.

Vladd

[-ammo-]

I'm sorry that it seemed to become a "big deal".  The implication that I might have been dishonest to protect the interest of my friends and squad mates was there IMO, and I wanted to strongly refute that.  No amount of  "smileys" would have steered my attention away from that.

But anywho I see you were not that serious, so no biggy.

The way i saw it at the time was this--

The question arose at 30 minutes left if the sides wanted to continue. the axis didnt want too. They had 11 online and 8 of them were south at A2, out of the fight. The 3 were 109's from the 56th at A19.  The allies had 24 by the roster, but I couldnt tell you how they were laid out.  But they wanted to continue. Sancho said he would fly so thats how it started.  In the end Vladd's attack was successful and the 109's were rtb'ing. I watched with the CM eye as the mossies landed and then as the 109's were IB 19. Tilt called time with the 109's on final. I let them land as a reward for a hard fought battle. The rule was not in my mind till it was mentioned by funked.  In the CM forum, it was discussed and I asked exile to take the 109's from the AXIS because the rule is clear.

Now dinger said "this Cowboy act" by the 109's... well I dont think thats how they saw it,  they just wanted to have some fun and provide some opposition:).   Whether the 56th "Kicked butt" is irrelevant to this.  What is relevant was that I thought it was fair to the axis at the time to let them land, whether they were in my squad or in some other would have also been irrelevant.  Afterwards..the rules were reviewed by me and in the interest of being a fair CM I switched my thoughts on it.

In all I am glad everyone had a good time, that is the measuring stick we should use on how good these TOD's are.  My sqaud as well as all the other participating squads (that i know of) had a good time.

[Buzzbait]

S!

I`m not going to be a TOD CM after this anyhow, since I`m moving over to Scenarios,  (Think Med. Fellas... ) but I personally prefer to be a little flexible on rules.

I`d like to see the start of a TOD be dawn, and the end be dusk, with players who are late taking their chances on landing in the dark.  But of course, gamers just turn up their Monitor brightness and presto, landing isn`t a problem.

So I am squarely on Ammo`s side in this one.   I think he made the right call and the 109`s should have been allowed to land safely.

[Dinger]

Yeah, the bottom line is that it isn't a "big deal"; everybody had fun.

BTW, "Having Fun" can occur without "kicking butt", but kicking butt makes having fun that much more entertaining.

Yeah, and I guess it goes to show that God alone can judge intentions; we have to rely on acts.
Ammo

[Tilt]

Originally posted by funkedup
Vladd:  Those 109s took a risk (ignoring the time limit) that had a possible reward (destroying 4 Mosquitos).  If you want the reward you have to accept the risk too.  Otherwise it ain't cricket.

We had sufficient forces in the area to destroy those 109s, but we were playing within the rules and trying to land on time, which meant we couldn't attack them.

Rules are rules and the players have a right to demand that they be followed...............

However (and this is a personal opinion) I was "with" the Mossie attack from before it went feet dry over France/Belgium until it landed....... I also flicked back and forth to watch the chasing 109's.

The 109's IMHO turned for home just before the Mossies were going feet dry England. They had cut it too fine and were descending and deccelerating to land as I called time.

I would not penalize them if it were my decision. They were within the spirit of the rules and they were not attempting to abuse them. It was not unreasonable for them to believe they could make it back in time and they attempted to do so.

Their chase made the end game exciting and added to  game play.

The RAF did not have any other intercept forces other than (Finally) a lone Tiffie escort which infact played  rear guard over the Mossies.

I must say that the dive on target to deliver ordinance followed by the low level run north was well executed by the Mossies who escaped under (and slightly west of) the 109's who seemed to be distracted by the Tiffie (s) at the time.

I would also say that from a setup CM's point I enjoyed last Saturdays TOD. Its much better to have stuff happening at the end rather than the whole thing just fading away..............


Tilt

[Grayarea]

I was that Tiffy

BTW the other pilot over A15 was Sog in a Spit. Sog, you enabled the strike team to get home.

If the 109's had plowed on and tried engaging the mossies regardless of time, then I would agree a penalty was in order.

However Sanco was at best guilty of cutting it (his rtb) too fine.

I see no issue.

all, easily the best fun I have in AH is the TOD.

Grayarea.



Flight Lieutenant Grayarea.
Officer
56 (fiter) Squadron The "Firebirds"-RAF.
2nd Tactical Airforce.