Give us AMRAAMS ...

[MANDOBLE]

You are wrong Lephturn, I exposed two examples, there are 111 more in the last moth. These are, for me, enough experience and online testing. I was only asking for your own experience about damaging Las, not just trying to demostrate that I'm right. Just because I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, I'm asking about the global community "feeling" with the La7 damage model.

I have an opinion, Wulfe has the opposite one, but I'm not asking him to post any video to demostrate he has no problem at all causing critical damage to La7 with short bursts.

In this thread, I'm looking for people experience, and it seems there are some ones that, as me, notice that La7 "inmunity". As I've said earlier, most of these 113 La7 kills where due fire, not due structural neither engine damage.

My experience is, in fact, extremely limited, not because I've killed only few La7, 113 is a good number of them, but because I always used same guns against it (151/20). It seems that Karnak has same results with hispanos.

Wulfe, K/D or time online means nothing, number of kills means a lot when you try to have a "feeling" about how easy or hard is to damage a plane.

In my personal experience, F6F or F4U1(C/D) are much easier to "break" than La7. Same case with 190A8, and it was supposed to be a very well armoured plane.

[funkedup]

Franz Stigler told me it took 6 to 8 MK 108 hits on the wing of a B-17 to ruin the wing.  If the hits were tightly grouped the wing would fail.

[Tac]

La7 is impossible to bring down unless you hit its wings. Its harder to shoot down than the P-47.

Mandoble: There's a bug in the la7 that makes it smoke when you shoot its flap off. Just like the Ju88 smokes when you shoot its gear or the C202's main fuel tank can be hit, you leaving a fuel stream behind your plane, and you main fuel tank not losing a drop of gas.

Smoking la7 means its got no flaps, thats it. Shoot it some more.

P-38 takes damage now. It takes the same amount of lead to kill it as it does to kill any other fighter. 4 20mm's will whack it in one snapshot, 50 cals need to hit it in an area with a short burst to snap something off. It just looks tougher because its wing roots no longer snap as easily (need 30mm for that).

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Zippatuh

On a side note there was also a 47 pilot who said they were given orders to fire in front of or behind German tanks when they were on paved roads.  You see the armor underneath could be penetrated by the .50’s.  I had to throw this in hehe.  I’ve seen an argument about it in the past.  Not that I totally agree that it would work, I’m just mentioning that it was said.

Zippatuh

This can be classified as one of those things that had no basis in fact, yet was believed whole-heartedly by many pilots. Simply stated, bullets striking the ground will be badly mangled and lose considerable energy. Considering that the underside of a typical tank is between 15 and 25mm thick, penetration was extremely unlikely. Especially when you consider that the geometry is all wrong anyway. All German tanks were vunerable (to a varying degree) on their upper rear decking. Getting a few rounds into the radiator was enough to stop the tank within a few minutes. The shear volume of fire from multiple .50 cal MGs created the reasonable probablility that several of them would find their way through exhaust vent louvers and do some level of damage within the engine compartment. Some German tankers fear the MGs more than rockets for the simple reason that rockets were not especially accurate, but gunfire could be placed with much greater accuracy and concentration.

My regards,

Widewing

[MrLars]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE


My question is, again: it is me, or most of you are having problems trying to cause critical damage to the Las?

I fly the la7 some, I get wingtips shot off, gear damage, control surface losses...the whole gamut of damage and, to me, the la7 is just about as vulnerable to mg or cannon as most planes are. A bit more durrable to mg's but cannons rip it apart in just a few pings. Yaks or 109's kill me instantly if I give them a shot w/ their big cannons. I've shot just about every plane in the planeset with the 40mm bofors gun on the PT and have noticed lately that it takes up to 2 seconds for damage to show on my FE, I suspect that lag is more of a culprit than the evil deamon some think the La7 is

[AKSWulfe]

Mandoble, I am asking for a film to see what you are seeing relative to what I see. You want me to make a film? Okey dokey, just as soon as I got some flight time and find me a La7, I'll make you a film. The 262 is moot, I've downed La7s with a single hit before- but that was a direct hit to the tail (not the aft fuselage) and this caused his horiz stab to flutter away.

The 190A8, I will load up the 4 MG151/20 option, and film it for you. A few weeks ago I shot down LLBM's La7 with a single (or maybe it was 2) hit(s) from the MG151/20 to his horiz stab. He fell away.

I can even do it in the 205. My point is, if you want to see what I see... I'll do it. If I want to see what you are seeing, I'd like to see it.

The k/d has nothing, I know. I just wanted to show you how we compare in that category. Overall, you get more La7 kills than me- in fact you get more kills total- but that is more because I don't fly nearly as much as you do.

The thing that is obvious here, is that I have no problem killing them. But the lack of flight time, hinders any real comparrison we could actually do.

I have been fighting them long enough(since they came to be in AH), however, to know where to aim and what to aim for. As long as how long of a burst I will need.
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

Wulfe, it is you that cant read or it is me that cant write correctly???

What I've said is just that I'm not going to ask you any film, screenshot or whatever to believe what you are telling to us.

I believe you, but I've said, and I say again that you have not enough experience killing La7s. That doesnt mean that you are unskilled or that you dont know where to aim. Just that these kills in 3 tours are too few, IMO, to have a reliable "feeling" about how hard or easy is to destroy a plane.

It is just like if you ask me how easy is to kill a Mosquito, having only 13 kills in the last 3 tours I, sincerely, cant answer this question.

[Edit]
Ups, forgot your initial question. Well, to see what I see, I would need to send you about 120 films, and I have none, in fact I think that I have the "recording" key re-assigned to something else.
Just one, two, three films are also too few to have the "feeling" I'm talking about. And remember, I'm not saying that La7 is undestructible, just that it requires much more ammo than anyother plane and that most of the time it will catch on fire without structural damage.

It seems that Tac, flying mainly P38 (very concentrated fire and 1 hispano) has a hell of problems to kill one hitting at the La7 main body.

[hazed-]

maybe the 30mm are not hitting with the power they should be?

I have read time and time again that one 30mm is enough to destroy a fighter but i dont see that very often. I mostly see 2 or 3 make a kill of a fighter.4 or 5 for a b17 or similar.

I dont think 30m are as deadly in AH as they used to be.The days of 1 hit equaled a kill 90% of the time seem to have gone but im not even sure if thats because AH has had 30mm toned down or its just a percieved change.

[GRUNHERZ]

F6F

LA7

P47


The three toughest fighters in AH in order.  The F6F just eats up 20mm MG151 especially the fuselage, the LA7 has an unusual resistance to 30mm and the P47 is pretty tough all around. Plus the LA7 is about 1/3 the target either of the P47 or F6F.


IMHO I think there may reason to think there is a bug in the LA7 DM, sometimes it just smokes or leaks with no damage to anything and didnt anyone say that some damage was not represented accurately.


Anyway who cares the LA7 is a crappy fighter and no real threat to any skilled pilot in any decent plane........

[AKSWulfe]

Well, having fought the thing since it came to be in AH, I do believe that I have this "experience" you want so bad. It's been, 8 months?, since AH modelled it. I've flown against it often enough to accumulate enough kills to be considered "experienced" against it.

Is it the problem that I don't have 50 kills a tour against it that makes you believe I'm not experienced against it? Because if that's it, then someone should tell them WWII vets that they aren't "experienced".

The fact that every one of those kills in each tour was as every bit as predictable as the last one- shoot it up, watch it go down- then that leads me to believe that it ain't the plane.

The damage model hasn't been changed since it first arrived, why now does it need to be revised? Too many of them around and you can't get that snapshot kill on it?

Oh, and I'm not asking to see the film to believe- I'm asking to see any film because it's much easier to tell what's going on.

Or am I mistaken and there's a conspiracy against the LostWaffles to disprove any of their claims.... again?

EDIT: And as for what Tac says, hell, the poor guy still complains about the N1K2.... I don't take anything he says seriously... especially since I have experience in the P38 and know just what it can and can't do.
-SW

[AKSWulfe]

As a matter of fact,I just found a film in which I shoot the tail off of an La7- the whole tail section- using the 4x20mm option in the 190A8.

Comes out to roughly 400kb zipped up.

If you want to see it from my end, you're welcome to it.
-SW

[Urchin]

Took off an La-7s tail at 500 yards today using just the twin Mgs on the G-10s nose.  Granted, he was afk, but it only took 100 rounds fired.  I don't think the plane is any tougher than any other one.  The P-47 and F6F get my vote for toughest planes, but they are also massive planes with large radial engines.  I think the 190A could be a little tougher, but then I'm probably biased .

[lapa]

Well, since you wanted other people's experiences, here's mine from last night: Met a La7 in a zero, he tried to turn with me, i got a short burst in. Saw several hits flash briefly, his wingtip and stab came off and he went down. In my experience, its a durable plane but nothing special.

Only durability related thing that really got my attention while flying the La 5 and 7 was that the engine can take some punishment and still bring you back. It withstands oil leaks especially well but still stops eventually.

Lapa

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
You are wrong Lephturn, I exposed two examples, there are 111 more in the last moth. These are, for me, enough experience and online testing. I was only asking for your own experience about damaging Las, not just trying to demostrate that I'm right. Just because I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, I'm asking about the global community "feeling" with the La7 damage model.

Yep, and the global community "feeling" is completely worthless, even if that was what you got.  What you get is other people that had a problem downing an La7 for one of a host of reasons remembering that experience.  It's not a valid survey and it certainly doesn't give you the "global community feeling", even if that was worth something.  Without some sort of controlled testing, all that "experience" is completely meaningless.  I can give you "experience" or anecdotal evidence of just about anything, even colflicting things based on my experience.  The only way to get any useful info is to do some controlled tests.  There are just too many variables in normal online flying to get any meaningfull results.

You can whine all you want, disagree all you want, but the fact remains that unless you test and put up some data, it's not likely that HTC will bother to look for a real problem.  They can't chase every whine on this BBS or they'd do nothing else but chase whines.  The fact is that if you don't do some tests, you are just wasting everybody's time.  If you really think something is wrong and should be fixed, do some quick tests.  It's real simple, are you looking to get something fixed, or just whine?  So far it's obvious.

Lephturn

[Toad]

Is it possible that Mandoble is Ram in an Armani suit?