Author Topic: A few quotes from a smart man  (Read 1027 times)

Offline miko2d

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A few quotes from a smart man
« on: January 23, 2002, 12:39:55 PM »
Richard Dawkings:

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.

 With so many mindbytes to be downloaded, so many mental codons to be replicated, it is no wonder that child brains are gullible, open to almost any suggestion, vulnerable to subversion...

 Justifying space exploration because we get non-stick frying pans is like justifying music because it is good exercise for the violinists right arm.

 We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

 I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.


 The last one is a bit too general. In fact the smartest religious people - the top-level scientists, admittedly a tiny minority among religious (or any)  people - believe that trying to discover the workings of the universe is the most fitting way to admire the work of the Creator and the most proper use of the mind we posess.

 miko

Offline Gunthr

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2002, 01:03:23 PM »
[q]"In fact the smartest religious people - the top-level scientists, admittedly a tiny minority among religious (or any) people - believe that trying to discover the workings of the universe is the most fitting way to admire the work of the Creator and the most proper use of the mind we posess."[/q]






That is exactly what I believe -  and nothing comforts me and inspires me more than hearing about the simple faith in God that is sometimes the product of scientific minds.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Dinger

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2002, 01:40:28 PM »
I don't buy it.
I'm not particularly religious, but in my experience the "small minority", today and a thousand years ago, is those who use their faith as an excuse not to explore themselves and the universe.
The positivist, progressivist fantasy is dead folks.  We ain't never gonna understand the universe.  Worse, science, like religion, requires that you accept its most basic principles on faith .
Putting commonplaces in compu-speak doesn't make 'em any deeper.  And if you believe empirical science, the human brain does not function like a computer.

Faith and reason are polyvalent terms; their exclusivity and the degree of their exclusivity has been a matter of debate for millennia.

Offline miko2d

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2002, 01:55:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
I don't buy it.
I'm not particularly religious, but in my experience the "small minority", today and a thousand years ago, is those who use their faith as an excuse not to explore themselves and the universe.


 While I am not a religious person at all, in this particular thread I referred as "small minority" not to "those who use their faith as an excuse not to explore themselves and the universe" but to the top-level scientists (Nobel laureats, etc) who are in the forefront of humanity in exploring the Universe.

 Many notable phyisicists, mathematicians and biologists - (including darwinists) are religious people. Darwin himself was a religious person.

 To me that proves that Science and Religion do not intesect. The only people who try to mix them together are those literally interpreting the book (whichever one) and staking correctness of theiir religion on whether it explains the workings of the world.

 Surely humans would not need such a powerfull brain some of us are equipped with (courtesy of Creator?) if the only goal was just to memorize the Book? In fact, I would expect better memory instead - at least as powerfull as the one the squirrels have.

 Also, that is the first I've heard about science requiring to "accept its most basic principles on faith". Any scientific theory may be build on certain assumptions but those assumptions are always questioned and their causes are investigated in turn.
 The purpose of a String Theory is (among other things)  to explain the weights of the partilces that we so far "took for granted" (just measured them). Never ment that we just believed in those weights but treated them like any other fact to be looked into later.

 miko
« Last Edit: January 23, 2002, 02:05:00 PM by miko2d »

Offline midnight Target

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2002, 02:04:45 PM »
Quote
The positivist, progressivist fantasy is dead folks. We ain't never gonna understand the universe. Worse, science, like religion, requires that you accept its most basic principles on faith .


LOL, I musta missed the funeral.

Please enlighten us as to when exactly we "hit the wall" as far as "understanding the universe" goes Dinger. Then I want to hear about faith and science. Waiting eagerly for your reply.

Offline the_hegemon

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Re: A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2002, 04:59:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Richard Dawkings:

 Justifying space exploration because we get non-stick frying pans is like justifying music because it is good exercise for the violinists right arm.

 miko


If you think about it, a lot of technology in the last 50 years has resulted from our attempts at space exploration.  The other big contributor has been war and the things that go along with it, such as figuring out more efficient and better ways to kill each other.

Personally, I'd prefer we stick with space exploration.

Offline funkedup

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2002, 05:03:32 PM »
Me:  Where did mankind come from?

Scientist:  Evolution

Me:  What causes evolution?

Scientist:  Laws of physics that cause systems to self-organize.

Me:  Where did the laws of physics come from?

Scientist:  The laws of physics are part of our Universe.

Me:  Where did the Universe come from?

Scientist:  The Big Bang.

Me:  Where did the Big Bang come from?

Scientist:  Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh DOH!

« Last Edit: January 23, 2002, 05:05:52 PM by funkedup »

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2002, 05:19:54 PM »
funny funked, but WRONG!

I mean what the heck is your point? Assuming we don't have any possible answers to "where did the big bang come from" (see expanding and collapsing universe) do you suggest we just stop looking? sheeeesh!

Offline funkedup

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2002, 05:22:34 PM »
My point is similar to Dinger's.  Science can only explain things so far.  If you trace the chain of logic in every scientific explanation you invariably end up with a starting assumption that must be accepted without proof.  Which is an act of faith.

I think it's great for scientists to seek an answer to the "Whys" of the universe.  Even if there is never a final answer there will likely be many discoveries which have material usefulness.  But  it's possible that they will never find a final explanation, or that the explanation will not be comprehensible to human minds.  In that case the scientists will ask us to accept that which we can not understand.  Sort of like a priest might ask me to accept "Divine Mystery".
« Last Edit: January 23, 2002, 07:02:22 PM by funkedup »

Offline Dinger

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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2002, 05:37:11 PM »
Aristotle, who gave us the notion of epistemology.  No science can prove the validity of its own principles.
A classic metaphysical case is the principle of non-contradiction, which Aristotle holds necessary for all human science.  The same statement cannot be both true and false in the same way at the same time.  So:
"socrates is sitting" and "socrates is not sitting" cannot both have the same truth value in the same way at the same time.
You can't logically prove that; you can only show that without it all human discourse is meaningless.
It's sort of what funkedup illustrates.  For science to work, we have to assume that the universe works in certain ways.

As for understanding the universe, how do you think anyone can figure out the workings of the universe if nobody seems able to comprehend the opposite sex?

Anyway, it runs deeper than that, so fire away Midnight Target.


Anyway, I'm with you that using religious dogma as scientific proof is dangerous, and those who stake their faith on its validity have serious problems.  But the implication of Dawkings' (except the teflon comment, which is spot on) lines is that science renders religion useless.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2002, 05:40:56 PM »
I'm reminded of this Survey in The Economist.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2002, 07:20:27 PM »
Epistemology is the study of knowledge and how manifests in its many forms. Many advancements were made since Aristotle (although slowed by religion :) ) Empiricism and rationalism both can be used in the example you mention.

No time now though....see ya tomorrow.

Offline Daff

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2002, 07:28:57 PM »
"Science can only explain things so far. "

And everytime science go one step further, religion has to withdraw and come up with arguments  like "Well..it's a metaphor!", when it comes to the particular religions description of the universe, life and everything was created.
(Or do we still believe the world was created in 7 days?).

Daff

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2002, 07:38:49 PM »
It was created in seven really really reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eally long days, yep.  :)

Offline Dinger

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A few quotes from a smart man
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2002, 08:26:16 PM »
Uhhh... let's see.
Empiricism requires us to rely on experience.  Have there ever been times when a statement was both true and not true at the same time?

Such a statement requires us to assume that experience is a reliable indicator of reality.  Why do we assume that? Because it seems to have been the case so far.  That's a case of petitio principii.
Sorry, you can't prove empiricism.

Rationalism? So, what's the point?  What kind of reason can we apply that does not assume the principle of non-contradiction?

And yeah, Daff, that's been the standard approach.  The Bible should not be interpreted metaphorically unless there is overwhelming evidence to do so.  Scientific reality ain't exactly essential to most religious messages.  If it presents a more plausible story for the creation of the world, great! It's not like the creation myth is an article of faith in any religion worth the name.  After all, if you believe the Bible, the world is flat, and for the last 2500 years, only a couple of crackpots have maintained that idiocy.