Author Topic: The Twin Engine Devils after a hop (Read 837 times)

K West · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2002, 12:59:04 PM »

Yeah. But just look at what they did during that hop!!

HoHun · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2002, 03:50:44 PM »

Hi Tac,

>Actually FDiron, air forces today use planes far less capable than the p-38 for close ground support.

Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army.

>A p38 with modern avionics, engines,weapons and building materials would be quite formidable in that role.

A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-)

The concept of building ground attack aircraft based on WW2 fighters was actually tried in earnest. The "Piper Enforcer" was a turbo-prop powered ground attack development of the Mustang :-) It was rejected.

The FMA Pucará fits the twin-engined propeller attacker description quite well, and as a new deisgn, it probably was much more cost-effective than a P-38 could ever be. It's telling that it was built by Argentinia, though - if you can afford effectiveness, the opinion of what is cost-effective changes.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Tac · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2002, 06:31:29 PM »

"Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army"

Yep, but the air force aint the army

. I know what u mean, but there are things a fixed wing craft can do that a helo cant. Like get in close and strafe. Helos would get shot down if they did that. Helos work by stealth, planes by speed. Thats why the A-10 is in inventory and not a whole lotta apache or cobra gunships

"A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-) "

The shape is the same aint it? Just made of lighter, stronger materials and with better engines

The Pucara is an interesting plane.

(IA58)
Crew 2 (pilot, co-pilot)
Engines 2 Turbomeca Astazou XVIG turboprops
max power 978 equivalent shaft hp each
max internal fuel
338 US gal (1,280 liters)
Weights
empty 8,862 lb (4,020 kg)
max external stores load
3,307 lb (1,500 kg)
max takeoff 14,991 lb (6,800 kg)
Dimensions
wing span 47 ft 6 3/4 in (14.50 m)
length 46 ft 9 in (14.25 m)
height 17 ft 7 in ( 5.36 m)
wing area 326.1 sq ft (30.30 sq m)
Performance
never-exceed speed (Vne)
405 kts (466 mph; 750 km/h)
max level speed
270 kts (310 mph; 500 km/h)
cruise speed
max 259 kts (298 mph; 480 km/h)
econ 232 kts (267 mph; 430 km/h)
stall speed, flaps and gear down at 10,560 lb (4,790
kg)
78 kts ( 89 mph; 143 km/h)
climb rate 3,543 ft/min (1,080 m/min)
ceiling 32,084 ft (10,000 m)
radius with 3,307-lb (1,500-kg) weapons load
lo-lo-lo 121 nm (140 mi; 225 km)
hi-lo-hi 189 nm (217 mi; 350 km)
radius with 1,764-lb (800-kg) weapons load and
119 US gal (450 liters) of external fuel
lo-lo-lo 310 nm (357 mi; 575 km)
hi-lo-hi 526 nm (606 mi; 975 km)
ferry range with full internal fuel and 459 US gal
(1,736 liters) external fuel
2,002 nm (2,305 mi; 3,710 km)
armament 2 Hispano HS804 20-mm cannon internal
and 4 FN Browning 7.62-mm guns internal
and 3 pylons for up to 3,307 lb (1,500 kg)
of external stores including up to
12 276-lb (125-kg) or 113-lb (250-kg)
napalm bombs
or 3 1,102-lb (500-kg) bombs
or 7 19-round 2.75-in (70-mm) rocket pods
or 12.7-mm/20-mm/30-mm gun pod and 2 drop
tanks

Aside from having more guns and a tad better climb rate, the ww2 38 still beats it.

"In December 1989, Argentina delivered three Pucaras to Colombia on loan for use against drug manufacturers and smugglers. It is believed that these aircraft come from undelivered aircraft that had been held in storage. It has been reported that over 40 used Pucara aircraft are available for export and Argentina is actively seeking buyers"

Yep, I used to see these suckers flying low over my house on the outskirts of Cali every time the insurgents got rowdy and noisy in the hills. Things got mighty quiet after a few bangs.

Sadly, they dont fly that often, them too expensive to lose and to fuel (and you think canada has issues sending troops to the desert with forest camos, we cant even fuel the fediddleing aircraft lol!)

Aint bad looking either

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2002, 10:04:52 PM »

a P38 would suck as a ground attack fighter today. Are nuts no way could that structure survive the modern battlefied with radar guided light AAA. Tac you gotaa be kidding or drunk or both.

HoHun · « **Reply #19 on:** January 26, 2002, 04:25:33 AM »

Hi Tac,

>>"Close support today universally seems to be provided by attack helicopters integral to the army"

>Yep, but the air force aint the army

Close support itself is not a cost-effective mission. An air force is much more effective attacking the enemy on the move in the rear areas and disrupting his logistics. The mission today is called battlefield area interdiction, but the idea itself is not new - in WW2, the Luftwaffe supported Blitzkrieg that way, and even the Soviet Stormovik usually was employed against supply lines, not against the fighting troops themselves.

The former Luftwaffe-General Paul Deichmann summarized the WW2 experience of fighting the Soviets for the US military, and concluded that devoting the Luftwaffe to close support in WW2 was a major mistake (see "Spearhead for Blitzkrieg" by Paul Deichmann/Alfred Price).

>Thats why the A-10 is in inventory and not a whole lotta apache or cobra gunships

The A-10 is currently on the way out of the inventory, mainly because it's slow, vulnerable, and out of a mission.

>>"A P-38 with modern engines and materials would have nothing to do with a P-38 at all :-) "

>The shape is the same aint it?

Not when you're through with it :-) You'd have to change the wing section to something more modern first ... then you'd have to switch the engines for turboprops and delete the turbo-superchargers that were the reason for the orginal twin-boom layout - no need to stick to that now. The booms impair downward visibility too much for an attack aircraft anyway.

You'd also have to re-design the entire aircraft for survivability since in the close air support mission, it would certainly get hit - and this would mean a blank sheet approach anyway. Not to mention expanding the cockpit to accomodate a two-man crew, complete with ejection seats.

In short, mounting more powerful engines on the Pucará would probably be a lot easier way to get the desired results. Finding an old OV-10 Bronco to start with might also work, if you don't mind view restrictions and a dubious ejection system :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Apar · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2002, 03:21:22 AM »

LOL, I can see Lazer in the pic too (right middle), he's bending over slightly, scratching his head and asking himself, how tha hell did I get here, I didn't even know I had that many squad mates.

And before I forget:

*SLAP*SLAP*SLAP* for ruining all that expensive equipment

laz · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2002, 05:17:29 PM »

*SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSLLLLLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP*

mipoikel · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2002, 04:04:33 PM »

YES!! Now I know why twin engined devils are sometimes so hard to hit! They are cheating!!!!!!!!!! They have too small planes!

Tac · « **Reply #23 on:** January 28, 2002, 04:06:42 PM »

HOT DAMN! I WANT ONE! =)

fdiron · « **Reply #24 on:** January 28, 2002, 06:47:42 PM »

Helos can make strafing runs. In 1993 battle of mogadishu, MH6 helos made strafing runs with their 7.62mm fixed gatling guns on Somali troop concentrations. In todays battlefield, its more important to have a plane that will bring the pilot home than it is to have a cost effective ground attack aircraft. I would take an A10 over a P38 anyday.

M.C.202 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2002, 07:47:31 PM »

Where can we ger more info on that neay toy

MadBirdCZ · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2002, 04:39:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mipoikel
YES!! Now I know why twin engined devils are sometimes so hard to hit! They are cheating!!!!!!!!!! They have too small planes!

Hmm I told them for about million times... do not wash your P-38s or they gonna shring in the dryer... oh well

Toad · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2002, 04:52:42 PM »

The guy with the mini-38 lives out in California. Don't remember exactly where. Met him at an airshow at Half Moon Bay near SFO a few years ago.

He built that thing himself... not a kit... he designed it and built it.

Note the Indian head on the tail... he's an ex-345th Air Apaches pilot (just like my father).

Nice, nice fellow.

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2002, 11:28:50 PM »

thats not a mini 38, thats the worlds largest man piloting it, remember the 38 could lug a lot of weight off the ground, note he modified the nose to carry a full kitchen.