Author Topic: Tactical move or dweeb trick II... (Read 321 times)

StSanta · « **on:** January 25, 2002, 02:09:09 AM »

You're hunting this d00d. You're in BadArse mood, as usual.

You saddle up on this soon-to-be-a-red-splatter-on-the-ground object, and he starts the maneuvering.

First, he pushes the stick forward, pushing 5-9 negative g's. The he pulls back, 6-8 g's. Then he pushes forward. The he pulls back. Then, he rolls his plan 90 degrees. Instead of pulling some g's to alter his course and get outta yer guns, he pushes 4-6 negative g's and seemingly hang suspended in the air while you mutter a few colourful phrases, roll yer plane around 180 degrees and (hopefully) blast him into very tiny pieces so the ants won't have to chew too much.

Fantastic innovative and surprising ingenious move, or a dweeb push 'n pull tactic, used only by the lowest of bottomfeeding politicians?

Lemme hear your opinions

.

mrsid2 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 25, 2002, 02:20:29 AM »

It's definately a dweeb move, exploiting the fast redout we have here. I saw it a lot in WB where it was more effective than here.

A 190 would simply disappear from your gunsite - only to find out he's pushing negative g's and making whole loops like that. Then if you try to follow by rolling over, he simply reverses gaining advantage.

I've seen it happen here too. In real life most planes wouldn't be able to take the stress from the high negative g without (even fatal) damage. If neg g loops were a viable move, we'd hear about them in war stories. I haven't heard of them.

Tumor · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2002, 02:23:25 AM »

Not sure I completely understand the "move". The "seemingly hangs suspended in mid-air" makes it sound like there's a bottom-feeder at work. However..pushing for negative G's?, I'm not a real life pilot therefore I can't comment on the realism, otherwise why wouldn't be a good move?

I've seen a certain stall "move" performed that I'm still trying to decide if it's trickery or valid. I'm referring to those times your on some bogeys butt like white on rice and he goes verticle...so you do too. Problem is as you go verticle with'em, guns blasting away, as the other plane begins to flop over and fill your windscreen.....bullets turn to rubber and the majority (if any) don't seem to hit a doggone thing. I'm allot more interested in figureing the validity of that one.

StSanta · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2002, 03:38:32 AM »

While they body is quite good ad coping with positive g's, there are certain subsystems that are particularly vulrenable to negative g's.

Severe redouts will rupture the delicate blood vessels in the eyes - and according to my father, who's an eye doc, the red out (which we all know is caused by the blood) doesn't go away in a second.

What I mean with hanging in the air is the enemy goes the wrong way - i.e if he rolls his plane, you expect the next move to be a positive g pull, meaning he'll move in the direction his canopy is directed - but instead he pulls many negative g's, and goes in the other direction (sort of).

Guess my view on this is pretty clear, but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or correct one.

Pepe · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2002, 03:43:32 AM »

I'm no doctor or expert but yes, I think redouts are severely undermodelled. Correcting this would cure the dweebn... would ecourage pilots not to do against-the-physics-of-things movements.

Cheers,

Pepe.

Grizzly · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2002, 03:57:24 AM »

You guys probably don't want to hear about AW, but we never had that problem there because after pulling too many Gs, you would stay unconscious for a greater amount of time. And you would get tired so any amount of Gs right after you wake up would knock you out again. I think AH has this too but maybe it should be cranked up some.

This and the stir thing stink.

grizzly

sparkzz · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2002, 04:06:44 AM »

From my understanding of redouts its a very painful experience unlike blackouts. Similiar to guzzling down a large glass of ice water on a hot summer day. We all know how fast 'brain-freeze' goes away. Yet the modelled effects seem to vanish instantly. I'd personally like to see the redout time increased substantially..

Vermillion · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2002, 06:47:05 AM »

Tumor, he's discussing the old "Dolphin" (hehe I can't spell "Porpoise"?? this early in the morning) manuever. Where you dive and climb the aircraft rapidly in the vertical like the way a dolphin jumps in and out of the ocean. The second thing he is describing is either an outside loop under extreme negative G's, or a outside loop in the horizontal plane.

Yup, the Neg G stuff is dweeby.

I have long been an advocate of a more severe pilot fatigue model, even if it was as simple as the one in AW.

Xjazz · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2002, 07:10:23 AM »

Hi!

Why modern military FBW jets have -2or3/+9 G limits?
Because pilot could get brain damages with high negative Gs.

With WW2 planes you could "explode" your head and / or plane with high -Gs if you are careless.

HTC please give to us some thigs to be worried during we fly in dark blue world...

BR

Gremlin · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2002, 07:26:12 AM »

Although I am not a real pilot, I gotta say i'd take 9 g's anyday before I'd take -1g. Gotta be the most disorienting nasty feeling known to man. Sounds very likely to me that significant neg g's could easily result in a brain haemorrage or damage to the inner ear or eyes or maybe all three. The dweeb move I hate to see is the guy who rolls his plane like he gonna pull positive g's in that direction immediately i get into position to pull lead and get a shot in only to discover that the bastage has rammed his stick forward and is red-out'ing his way in the other direction. The funny thing is he thinks he's 'da man', thinks he's being cute. However one rolling scissors later he's not feeling so clever, if anyone does this type of stick stirring on ya pull a rolling scissors, nails the dweebs every time.

Dawvgrid · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2002, 09:08:36 AM »

Negative makes you puke,,,trust me ,,,I`ve tried it.

Charon · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2002, 09:52:12 AM »

I seem to remember reading that Hartman used negative g manuvers as an escape action because other pilots were reluctant to go through the unpleasant experience. It could at least be used on occasion without exploding anyone's head

Some informed commentary on the specific physiology involved would be appreciated by anyone in the know.

Charon

hazed- · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2002, 10:28:59 AM »

I have seen a descroption of using negative g in scissors in the manual for European Air War(i think). As it was set during the battle of britain I think it was to take advantage of the carb fed spits and hurricanes of that era.Im sure negative G move only afforded a breif window of opertunity as it only meant the time it takes for the enemy to roll into a positiive G move. As the war went on and injection became the norm (and AH doesnt have any carb fed aircraft) the move was probably abandoned as the enemy could match the move pretty easily unless they were particularly against pulling neg-g.Maybe green pilots were reluctant to follow so the neg-g move could work? but in AH if it is just used purely because the enemies screen on your 6 will go red allowing your escape then its wrong and should be adjusted.
perhaps AH could model less stick pressure the more you pull over a certain agreed amount.
ie if we all agree 3 or 4 neg-g is a tollerable amount then as you pass this amount and begin to totally red out the stick input is reduced accordingly?
It would certainly cause pilots to keep their flying within a realistic phyisiological limit rather than purely an aircrafts structural one.

FLS · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2002, 01:46:26 PM »

The Hartmann escape maneuver was a neg-G pitch down with a roll out of plane then a pos-G pitch up to reverse direction. It was most effective at low altitudes where the attacker would be uncomfortable trying to follow and visual would be harder to reaquire with Hartmann flying low over the terrain.

Alternating pos-G and neg-G to get an attacker out of phase is a legitimate maneuver. Any rapid direction changes such as jinking will be affected by net lag but that's just the nature of online flight sims.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

StSanta · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2002, 01:47:18 PM »

The thing is: the capillaries in your eyes, once popped, don't just stop bleeding the second you reduce the negative g's. It takes some time for it to happen.

As someone already have pointed out, excessive negative g's can result in blood vessels rupturing in the brain. There are rather delicate vessels there, and the pressure increase at -4g for more than a brief period is potentially very dangerous.

Just asked my sis what kind of blood pressure the vessels in the brain generally can handle before popping. Will update this post when I got the info.