Realism vs. Fun

[Lephturn]

Today I had no problem finding a fight, mostly because there had been some field capture so everybody was much closer together scraping over the same island.  It was a problem on Sat. for me because everybody was in start position and the enemy bases were far enough away that I wasn't getting any enemy dar bar.

I don't need the uber-dots... I think longer range on the bar dars would do it.  I want to always be able to see friendly dar bar, and longer range on the enemy ones.  I don't need to know exactly where each plane is, but help me get into the right area.

However, one thing I DO waste time on that bugs me is chasing dots.  I see a dot.. I call on radio is there a friendly in X position and get no response.  I chase it down... and it turns out to be a friendly.  Bah.  Oh well at least I could find a fight in there today and didn't have to auger out of boredom.

One thing I do agree on, is that a smaller map would likely help.  However, I think if you think about it, you can have the same effect by simply increasing the radar ranges on the current map.

[Tac]

The few times I go there I find a fight easily. Almost always its a small dogfight, not a furball... usually when 2 flights of 2 or 3 planes each meet and bounce each other.

The 2 things that keeps me from the CT now that there's a P-38 in it are:

1) TCP (gawd, wtf is up with that? log in to CT, smacked to TCP, warpwarpwarpwarpwarp)

2) Who the heck put the P-38 bases 5 sectors away from the front line? Up a 38, fly 3 to 4 sectors, and only find fights down low (duh, whyd they be high when the field they must hit is down there?).  They should put ONE 38 enabled field at least 1 sector from the front line, say, A47 in the current NDISLES map. If im gonna go hi alt id take off from 57 or 59, but theres no way im gonna fly 2, 3 sectors just to engage a 5k zeke. heeelll no.

[Sabre]

Since it was my setup, I'll try to respond as best I can.  I uped the dar-bar range to 35 miles, figuring this would give each side adequate response time to incoming raids.  The network of neutral fields, while not very useful tactically, have working radar when they're captured.  So grabbing them is not a total waste.  They're also good for rearming.  We're having a debate in the private CT Team forum about further increasing the range to around 50 miles...no decision yet.

As for Allied land-based aircraft being too far back, initially that was true.  However, the Allies had captured a base from the Japanese that first evening, at which point the P38's were available literally in the Japanese's back yard.  This was the intent, to force the Allies to make an amphibias assault before they could bring in the Air Force.  Since then, the P38 has been dominating the skies over the Japanese islands.  Nice job Allies, buy the way:).

Regarding field capture, this was THE single most common reason sited for why people weren't flying in the CT, before the new CT team took over.  If you've followed the countless post before and since the CT was introduced, you'll gain an appreciation for how difficult it must be for HTC to deal with the many conflicting requests made of them every day...and how difficult it has been for us.  Personally, I don't see how having field capture hurts those that just want to shoot down others (at least up until the time one side has no bases left).

Oh, and this set up started with rebuild times set to twice the MA value.  I did this because of the long distances between the two sides in the initial set up.  I don't know if this has been for the good or not; still waiting for feedback.  Don't know if all this helps you all or not.  I just wanted to make sure you all knew that we're listening and trying our hardest to find the right formula.  Salute!

Sabre
CT Team

[Wotan]

i followed those countless posts about field capture....


see any more folks in the ct then when ct had no field capture?

Nope........... just like I said it would then.

fields are captured now through the back door as I said they would be during those countless field capture threads. There captured when no one is in there or when the 5 guys that are in there are fighting across the map.

With the exception of hblair I dont think I saw any of the other ct cms fly in the ct prior to becoming cms so I can understand that they have no idea that folks had fun without field capture.

Your settings you can do what you want. I am only replying to statements like "its what the people want" and "field capture brings in more folks".

Well very few of the people who wanted it fly there and they aren't any more folks flyin in there prior.

My squad had 6 guys that flew ct in the euro now I am the only one.

It may be that the small number of folks the fly the ct now as compared to then prefer field capture.

I prefered "combat theater" not a mini main with different planesets.

Thats all I say on it.

How about increasing cv down time at the very least to avoid parking it off a field.

[eddiek]

Well, since I've only had time to log in once since the terrain changed, I really can't say too much.  Was a bit ticked off when I found several bases that were ours according to the map, but I could not get a fighter available at any of them.
Ended up finding a fight off A47, enemy had their fleet offshore and were alternately making feinting attacks at us, then diving to the safe welcome arms of the acks (old, old, old tiring game I think).
One thing I think would be interesting is this:  Give ranking players ability to kick the shore batteries into AI mode, and let the shore batteries engage the fleets.  Makes taking a fleet into super close range VERY dangerous, would all but eliminate the floating ack umbrella the fleets have become, and it would keep fleet commanders on their toes.  Since the shore batteries are pretty easy to knock out with aircraft, to me, it evens the sides and makes the game more interesting.

[Saintaw]

AI shore battery : I like it

Wotan, if your only interest is shooting other planes, what bothers you about the field capture ? If you've only got one base left to take off from.... means more targets to shoot inthat area, right ?

[Pepe]

My €0.02:

I like CT. And that's an understatement.

MA radar is awful, terrible for a WWII simulation. Arguably is the worst possible implementation of that kind of system.

Not in CT. You can bounce, you can think, you can setup an engagement....hell, you can even disengage! Leave the radar setup like it is now. I will dispute anyone who says he can't find a fite. Above all, I think radar settings is the single most important issue to make combat different to the one prevailing in MA.

With regards to CV's....Yes I would like to have them modified. Not AI controlled, but I certainly put them away for a long time (if not for the whole tour) if sunk. Besides that, I would put ports in the farthest points of each side. I would make them harder to sink, to compensate for that, but damage inflicted would have to last longer. This way, the strat value of a CV (wether as a launching platform or a mobile ack battery ) would be balanced against the importance (time wise) of its loss.

Talking about base capture, I think it's crucial. I would not play CT if there is no base capture, because it would be a fighter only arena. I like a more complex setup, where you can capture things, grab territory, etc. Just see what happened yesterday nite in D66/A34/A37/A33...

Finally, with regards to planeset: there is no way Japanese planeset can do squat. Allies can rule the engagement almost with any plane. Either P-38, Hellcat, P-47, F4U-1 can dictate the terms of the fite against Tony or George, let alone Zeke. There is no way the Japanese force can counter a combined attack. I mean, a high alt buff force (escorted), is virtually untouchable to Japanese planes. Not a whine, just thinking that N1K2 should be perked at a very very low price.

As a conclusion, my only real problem with CT is connection. Warps can ruin any fight, wether in MA or in CT. But in CT itches more, since it involves more time and thinking.

Cheers, and CT players!

Pepe.

[Wotan]

Wotan, if your only interest is shooting other planes, what bothers you about the field capture ? If you've only got one base left to take off from.... means more targets to shoot inthat area, right ?

Example

we were (axis) at a34 to retake it and we did I killed the ack and killed 6 fighters and 1 b26 ib off the cv (after every guy i saddled up on in a zeke would run the 2 k too there ack btw).

There were 15 guys online 8 axis 7 allied. all but 2 axis were engaged at 34 the other 2 were enroute. There were 5 allied planes there.

Well we get a message a39 has been captured  (4 -5 sectors away). Thats how field capture works in the ct. Or better yet when no body is in there. We dont have the folks to defend every field we dont have the folks to fly 'round looking for nme cv deep in our territory. So short of no field capture whats left. In the "kurland" (norway map) there was guys grabbin bases off hours. I would log and we (several times) had gotten every base but 51. Return the next day someone had grabbed every base but 1. Even fields not even remotely linked to the victory conditions.

There at one time several threads about late night field capture in the main when we had only 15 guys there. Guys would racked up base grabs the same way then no opposition. Base capture is so easy now kill 3 ack is the biggest threat.

"Combat Theatre" not "sneaky back door base grab theatre".

Like I said I used to get my other 5 guys into the ct now just me out of my squad.

If thats what you guys want a "mini-main" well I gues I am done with it.

Couple that with the "ho, split esse run to fleet ack repeat"(on both sides) gets old.


Anyway Aces High has less and less to offer me everyday. I'll just take a break till 1.09 comes out.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Pepe


Finally, with regards to planeset: there is no way Japanese planeset can do squat. Allies can rule the engagement almost with any plane. Either P-38, Hellcat, P-47, F4U-1 can dictate the terms of the fite against Tony or George, let alone Zeke. There is no way the Japanese force can counter a combined attack. I mean, a high alt buff force (escorted), is virtually untouchable to Japanese planes. Not a whine, just thinking that N1K2 should be perked at a very very low price.

Pepe.

Actually it is much worse in the MA for those of us who like Japanese planes . And a lot of players in the MA will call you names for flying them .

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Pepe
My €0.02:

I like CT. And that's an understatement.

MA radar is awful, terrible for a WWII simulation. Arguably is the worst possible implementation of that kind of system.

That's just your opinion of it, and you sir, are in the very vast minority if you go by the arena numbers.  As I said in posts above, there are some parts of WWII air combat you DO NOT want to simulate.  Flying around not finding anybody is one of them, and the more difficult you make the radar settings, the harder it is to find a fight.

Originally posted by Pepe
Not in CT. You can bounce, you can think, you can setup an engagement....hell, you can even disengage! Leave the radar setup like it is now. I will dispute anyone who says he can't find a fite. Above all, I think radar settings is the single most important issue to make combat different to the one prevailing in MA.

You can "dispute" all you want, but I logged off twice on Saturday because I couldn't find a fight, and was forced to auger for lack of anything else to do.  Sure, it's possible to find a fight, it was just more difficult and I ended up spending a lot of time simplly looking for something to do.  That wasn't fun.  I'm not saying you go completely to the MA settings... longer range bar dar radar wouldn't change the things you say you like.  The icon settings have much more to do with bounces and escaping than the radar does, and the bar dar radar doesn't change that.  It's simple really, the shorter range the bar dar is, the more difficult it is to find enemies.  On Saturday with the map we had it was too short.  On Sunday each side had a base very close to the other so it "fixed" the problem, because closer fields had the same effect as longer range bar radar.  This just proves to me that longer range bar radar will help.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Sabre
Since it was my setup, I'll try to respond as best I can.  I uped the dar-bar range to 35 miles, figuring this would give each side adequate response time to incoming raids.  The network of neutral fields, while not very useful tactically, have working radar when they're captured.  So grabbing them is not a total waste.  They're also good for rearming.  We're having a debate in the private CT Team forum about further increasing the range to around 50 miles...no decision yet.



Oh, and this set up started with rebuild times set to twice the MA value.  I did this because of the long distances between the two sides in the initial set up.  I don't know if this has been for the good or not; still waiting for feedback.  Don't know if all this helps you all or not.  I just wanted to make sure you all knew that we're listening and trying our hardest to find the right formula.  Salute!

Sabre
CT Team

Thanks Sabre, it's obvious you folks are listening and doing your best.  With both sides having bases on the same island on Sunday, it certainly made finding a fight much easier!  I think this illustrates that longer range on the radar bars would help, or a smaller map.  The effect would be similar either way.

I think you are doing a great job considering you are working with NDIsles map.  It's much to big, and has 3 countries, which is making things pretty complex.  A proper 2 sided map of suitable size should make things much better.  Also, as the map gets smaller, the bar radar becomes essentially more effective given the same range settings.  I think a decent dar bar range will depend on the map, and should allow each country to "see" about 1/2 way into the other country by default.  This will allow raids to depart from rear bases unseen if desired, yet still allow folks to find where the action is at the front line bases.

Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate all the CT team's hard work.  In addition to putting lots of effort into the setup, you are also listening to our concerns and opinions, and that just rocks!  Thanks.

[popeye]

IMO communication would go a long way to make up for reduced dar settings in the CT.  If players would use AHVoice, and/or make an effort to report enemy contacts, it'd be much easier to find the action, and be more of a team effort.

[Lephturn]

Yeah Popeye, but that's a big IF.  The whole point of the graphical radar is to give you that same information, but not make it dependent on other people who may not feel like worrying about that stuff.  In the real thing you'd have a dedicated radar and comms staff to handle this stuff, but in AH we have other tools to provide us with the same information.  This way we get the information we need, but without requiring somebody else to perform that role.

[Nifty]

I think increasing the sector counter range would go a long way to helping find the fight.  I try to let people know what I'm doing when they ask, but sometimes I just can't stop and type in the middle of a fight.    One thing that might help is to increase the range on friendly dot dar, like the MA has.   You can see where your people are, but you can't see where the enemy is.  This would go a very long way to the "I chased down a plane but it was just a friendly, even after I asked repeatedly if another friendly was in that vicinity."

As for the CV being capped...  It was parked 5-10 miles off of A28 when I was flying.  We'd be foolish to let people up from a CV that close and climb to an advantageous position.   All that happened was consistent dogfighting in the CV ack.  It was a blast, but if they're gonna ack hug, we're gonna cap.  

[Pepe]

Lephturn,

Sorry if you felt offended by the tone of my post. Was not my intention.

On the content, radar setting makes a different combat environment with respect to MA. If you want MA settings, you can have them there. The vast minority have no other choice but CT.

On the easyness to find a fight, just ask people where the fight is. On my particular experience, I have NEVER, EVER been in the case where nobody tells me where the fight is. Your statement is plain wrong. Finding a fight is not a matter of radar settings, but a matter of numbers. If CT population is 20 or more, you can bet is easy to find a fight. Even if there are less people, just make a mission to attack a field, and there you have the fight.

Chasing dots is something intrinsecal to CT. I like that, as well. Adds to immersion, in my book. It's better than chasing red dots on radar.

Again, no offense intended. Seeking offense seems to be a MA pattern, not a CT one.  

Cheers,

Pepe