Who's the bigger "liberal commie" ?

[streakeagle]

I don't have numbers or a reference to back it up, but I say without fear of being wrong, there were almost none if any tourists at all from the US in the USSR in that time frame. The few who may have been there certainly did not attend high level meetings with North Vietnamese and Soviet leaders to determine what could be done to win the war in Vietnam against the US.

Because of the issues in that time frame, having a friend from a Communist country was practically a crime. Even in the 1990s, as a member of a special submarine crew with sensitive clearances, I was not allowed to even speak with average citizens from a very long list of "threat countries". If such a person even said "hi" to me, I would have had to report it immediately to my ship's security officer so that the NIS could start a formal investigation of that individual to ascertain whether or not they were a spy.

Looking back on past events without understanding the conditions that existed at that time does not provide an accurate perspective. The Soviet Union and its satellites were very much our enemy and our two governments behaved as such. During Vietnam, as in Korea, the cold war was on the brink of going hot. American citizens did not go on vacations there on a whim like they do now. It generally took government approval of both the US and USSR for an American to go to the USSR.  Bill Clinton's casual access to the Soviet Union in this time frame is as suspicious as any American visiting the USSR embassy in Mexico. If Bill had nothing to hide, why does he both lie and refuse to comment on the events that took place in that time frame?

If you don't think Bill is a habitual liar or you are willing to admit that but it doesn't bother you in the least, I am just wasting my time typing all this anyway. I can't win an argument with someone that doesn't believe that honesty and integrity are important leadership qualities or who choose to believe the viewpoint of someone who couldn't tell the truth if their life depended on it.

I don't think Bill was too much worse about honesty than the majority of other Presidents. But he was so blatantly obvious that he felt he was above even trying to appear to be a decent person. On top of that, unlike any other President, his beliefs and goals were diametrically opposed to ones this country was founded on. How does an immoral dishonest Communist coward get elected President of the United States?

Kennedy had his problems with women and organized crime, but with a little help from the press, he at least maintained an image worthy of someone with the title President of the United States. More importantly, he had shed blood defending the country from its worst enemies and died proudly serving it. His actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis should make anyone who voted for him feel proud.

When Nixon got caught lying, he didn't continue lying to the public. He did the honorable thing and resigned. Aside from Watergate, Nixon's performance as President was exemplary. No one dealt better with the Soviet Union or China. His strategy in Vietnam was outstanding, but domestic political conditions strongly influenced by the types of groups Bill supported, forced him to leave without finishing the job.

What is Bill Clinton's legacy? Can anybody name one thing he did as President that will help this country over the long run? All I will ever remember about his years is how terrible it was to be in the Navy under Bill, how he was above the law when it comes to making false testimony in a federal trial, how anyone who could witness against him died, and that his taste in women was absolutely pathetic. (If someone is going to abuse their power as President to cheat on their wife, they should at least do as well as Kennedy )

[easymo]

I have never said anything in defence of clinton. But, come on.  Tell the truth.  If you had to sleep with hillary, wouldnt you fool around.

[streakeagle]

But, if you, as President of the United States or even Governor of Arkansas, could choose to fool around with anybody you want, would you choose Paula or Monica? If you are going to risk getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, shouldn't the cookie at least be a hot fresh one that tastes good too? Bill even managed to screw up committing adultery. Totally incompetent.

[Udie at Work]

Originally posted by streakeagle
But, if you, as President of the United States or even Governor of Arkansas, could choose to fool around with anybody you want, would you choose Paula or Monica? If you are going to risk getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, shouldn't the cookie at least be a hot fresh one that tastes good too? Bill even managed to screw up committing adultery. Totally incompetent.

 Then he spent $50 million lying about something that 1/2 the country didn't care about, only to admit to everything the day before he left office.  Yeah that's who I want to support!

[Goth]

I always had a feeling Clinton was a sleeper for the KGB. Yet, the russian training was faulty, and just as he was supposed to be activated to perform his mole duties, he was distracted by an ugly fat intern who kept a dress in her closet unwashed cause she wanted something to remember him (or perhaps ebay).

Clinton is a lying PoS. As a military person I am extremely glad he left. Too bad I felt the need to get out before his term was up.

[-dead-]

If I recall correctly, one guy just out of the USMC (1 month) got into Russia in October 1959 with no problems - a visa given in under 48 hours (hey not bad for 1959!). I only remember the Marine cos he became famous later on for renouncing his US citizenship, oh, and doing some impossible shooting in Dallas with a dodgy Italian bolt action.
On January 4, 1960, he was issued a Soviet internal passport, citing his citizenship as "stateless." It was valid for one year.   He was given a one-time grant of 5000 old rubles ($500) to settle his hotel bill and purchase a train ticket for Minsk.  There would also be a monthly subsidy of  70 new rubles ($70) from the Soviet Red Cross.  
Hey sounds like the feelthy commies were really evil to US citizens back then.
But that was 1960: Here's a quick web trawl's revalations from the late 60s

http://library.fandm.edu/archives/FreySovietUnion.html
From
http://www.yaf.com/rebels2.shtml

While the election was a national focal point for YAF in 1968, it was by no means the organization's only major project. Stopping IBM's trade with Communist countries developed into a major campaign. YAF learned that Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria had purchased IBM's 1400 series data processing system, and it was only a matter of time before the system would be sold to the Soviet Union. YAF decided action must be taken, and YAF chapters across the country joined the "Stop IBM" campaign. The campaign included informing IBM employees, customers, shareholders, and the public of IBM's Communist connection.

And

In the fall of 1975, YAF launched a major campaign under the banner of "The Struggle for Human Rights." The campaign focused attention on the plight of Soviet dissidents and the repression behind the Iron Curtain. YAF also focused its fire once again on IBM, which was negotiating to sell a major computer system to Intourist, the Soviet travel agency and alleged KGB front. The campaign against IBM was successful, while of course the struggle for human rights continues today.  

Uhoh! Last one to set fire to their IBM-infested PC (or Mac) is a communist sympathizer!

Or from
http://www.ams.org/notices/199906/mem-segal.pdf

On a more personal note, I remember with nostalgic amusement my arrival, along with Irving and at least another one hundred or so members of the AMS [I think this is American Mathematics Society - but not sure], at Shmeretvyo Airport in Moscow in 1966. In those days one did not learn the name of one’s hotel assignment until arrival at the airport. Our group found itself lined up in front of a small table, staffed by two Intourist employees with a smattering of English and armed with a ledger book in which was inscribed each of our groups’ names, in Cyrillic—and I suspect not even in that alphabet’s order. The procedure was that the first person in line pronounced a name and then a search through the list was conducted, attempting to find a reasonable match. It was obvious after the first two or three such searches that the process would take all night. Rising above the growing din of complaints was Irving’s voice, coming from far back in the queue as he approached the table, protesting something like “NO, NO, NO!! This will never do!” Irving firmly commandeered the book, began at the top of the list, and called out the name of the first person on the list, then the second, and so on. The Intourist employees were startled and, I think, uncertain as to whether to be angry or simply amazed. They apparently had never seen such a performance nor imagined such a procedure. Irving was in charge, and the sense of gratitude among the group was palpable. He was not able to save us from a six-hour wait in our hotel’s lobby for room assignments, but I know he saved us an equal amount of time at the airport.

So a pain in the ass, maybe, but not impossible.

Or
From
http://www.dinersclubnewsroom.com/images/photos/50thAnniversaryGuide.pdf

1969 Establishments in Russia and Sri Lanka become agencies for Diners Club.

Intourist, a Soviet travel organization, agrees to accept the Diners Club card for hotels, restaurants, theater tickets,car rentals and other travel expenditures in Moscow and Leningrad.

So thaaaat's what they mean when they say someone's "a card-carrying communist"!

Sounds to me like there was a coupla tourist visas knocking about - well, at least Diner's Club thought there was enough business to set up shop....

[midnight Target]

When Nixon got caught lying, he didn't continue lying to the public. He did the honorable thing and resigned.

Streak! LOL I take back my nomination of mrfish as wit of the month....this is too funny!

[streakeagle]

Yeah, I know, oversimplification on Nixon, but like I said earlier, they are all liars... Clinton faced the same problems as Nixon and chose to face impeachment rather than fess up to the crime and step down when the evidence was every bit as good as the Watergate tapes. Of course the way our system works, the dems outnumbered the republicans, so he was innoncent of wrongdoing. Can I lie in court, then have my friends vote on whether I should be punished? I wish one day someone would give Bill what he has coming to him, but some people in this country are above reproach no matter what they say or do and Bill has proven to be one of them. Did any other President's steal stuff from the White House or vandalize it when they left? He is in my opinion the worst man to ever hold the office, which is pretty bad considering some of the fruit loops that have been elected.

I have yet to see even one person defend Bill in any thread by citing even one good thing that was done during his administration that he was personally responsible for. The majority of supportive statements seem to be along the lines of explaining why his actions were not criminal or incompetent. Whereas the obviously "criminal" Nixon did a lot of good things for this country's national security both as Vice President and President. His weakness was being arrogant enough to believe he could store incriminating tapes for posterity's sake without getting caught. For the most part, Nixon's only real crime per the tapes was proving he had knowledge of the illegal activities of his supporters. Regardless of anyone elses personal opinion of Nixon, I still consider him one of the best Presidents we ever had and as honorable as a man can be and still be called a politician.

[midnight Target]

Well I got this from an older CNN report regarding the August 98 attacks upon suspected terrorist camps:

Gingrich went so far as to dismiss the suggestions of a diversion as "sick." "I don't think people should think about that at all," Gingrich said. "This is real."

Sen. Helms (R-N.C.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, echoed that opinion, saying the attacks "were clearly designed to strike at the heart of a terrorist network that has the blood of American citizens on its hands, and which was planning further attacks on U.S. nationals."

"Terrorists around the world will realize that America's differences end at the water's edge, and that the United States' political leadership always has, and always will stand united in the face of international terrorism," Helms said in a written statement.

And Sen. Hatch (R-Utah), in one of the strongest statements of support for Clinton, said, "I don't think he could have waited any longer ... and frankly I commend him for doing it."

Yet people on this board continue to assert that those attacks were just to "wag the dog" and divert attention from Clinton's legal problems.  Lets not rewrite history with opinion here.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Thrawn


The height of the Cold War??  What made it the HEIGHT of the Cold War?  The fact that the USSR had fallen appart by this point and time?  The fact that Russia had given up communism for capitalism?  Totalitarianism for democracy??

It happened back in the 70's you doofus lol

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Tumor


It happened back in the 70's you doofus lol

It is true...I am a doofus.  I thought he was referring to the trip Bill took while he was prez.