how many 20mms on 109G-2?

[Pongo]

Cool
Lets see the diagram.

[GRUNHERZ]

Here you go. This is applicable for every Bf109 armed with the MK108 30mm cannon.

The 30mm magazine is part "d".

[BenDover]

but the tempest also had 200 rounds instead of 150 per gun, but considoring how powerful those cannons are, an extra 200 rounds in total wouldn't matter.

can't remember the url of that site i found that info on.

[Pongo]

I think that is pretty good evidence for putting 50 more 20mm rounds in our 109s... good work troops!

[Naudet]

Folks, i dunno were you get ur data from, but everything i read about the engine mounted canons of the Bf 109 is the following.


series,mounted gun,ammo load

F-3,MG151/15, 200 rounds

F-4,MG151/20, 150 rounds

G-series, MG151/20, 150 rounds

G-series, MK108, 60 rounds

you must excatly note which MG151 was installed, when the small caliber the 15mm was installed the gun had 200 rounds, if it was the 20mm it had only 150 rounds

[Porta]

Original german documents show 200 rounds for:

F-2 (Mg 151/15)
F-4 (MG 151/20)
G-1 (as above)
G-2 (as above)

Sorry, but I haven't scanner to post them. Those are from NASM and PRO.

BTW, several docs about U4 kits (MK 108) show a standard ammo load of 65 rounds (G-14/U4, G-14/U4/AS and, IIRC, the manual for K-4 also say 65 rounds).

[Kweassa]

So, the debate goes on

 I'm having some suspicious feeling that somehow, HTC staff went through this same process and decided to stick with 150 instead of 200 .. but still, if there is any chance that(and looking at the discussions so far.. I think there's a good chance) 200 rounds is really the right one.. I hope HTC would reconsider.

 If it isn't possible to scan those documents, it'd help to know where we can find them, Porta Thx for the good info so far

[Porta]

Hmm, from memory, one in the NASM microfilm archives about early G series was in reel 2466. About F-4, you cand find one sheet in W. Randiger's book "Bf 109 Development, Testing, Production".

If I have time, I'll post more references.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Naudet
Folks, i dunno were you get ur data from, but everything i read about the engine mounted canons of the Bf 109 is the following.

 

yet you dont state your sources...

[BlauK]

Porta says that G-2 had 200 rounds for 20mm fuselage cannon according to official documents. Could it be that it was different for G-2 and G-6 ?

I found this from a translated official finnish G-6 manual.... only 120-140 rounds, maybe the absolute maximum in G-6 is 150 rounds?

[butch2k]

AFAIK the reduction in ammo capacity was linked to the increase in wheel size of the later Gustav. The Ammo box in the left wing had to be reduced in size to make space for the wheel well.
Moreover it was pretty usual to reduce ammo load below the absolute maximum to decrease jammimg risks. As an  example the wing mounted MG151 jammed very easily when fed with 125rds links compared to to 115rds links so 100-115rds links were usual.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by BlauK
Porta says that G-2 had 200 rounds for 20mm fuselage cannon according to official documents. Could it be that it was different for G-2 and G-6 ?

I found this from a translated official finnish G-6 manual.... only 120-140 rounds, maybe the absolute maximum in G-6 is 150 rounds?

Interesting page, thanks for posting it. A couple of points struck me:

1) The ammo stats for the MG 151 show that the Finns didn't get the M-Geschoss.

2) What kind of installation was there for the wing guns? The standard German job coiled the belt into a flat pan which contained somewhere around 130 rounds, IIRC.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[butch2k]

Yes they used a kind of drum normaly fitted with 125rds, it was originaly 135, but it proved too unrealiable. AFAIK there was a problem with belt not properly disintegrating and jamming the weapon in the process. Great care had to be taken when replenishing the drum, moreover under cold condition problems occured frequently.

[BlauK]

Originally posted by Tony Williams

1) The ammo stats for the MG 151 show that the Finns didn't get the M-Geschoss.

2) What kind of installation was there for the wing guns? The standard German job coiled the belt into a flat pan which contained somewhere around 130 rounds, IIRC.

1)
Hmm... just an uneducated question. Wouldn't the 4. and 5. Expl.r. (explosive round) be the same as M-Geschoss? They are listed to include tracers, but on the other hand they do not have any incendiary properties like 2,3,6 and 7. M-Geschoss never had tracers?

2)
Some G-6s were /R6 but most had their wing cannons removed for manuvering reasons. Only a few pilots especially asked if they could keep them.. and liked the firepower too I think they were standard German stuff.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by BlauK

Hmm... just an uneducated question. Wouldn't the 4. and 5. Expl.r. (explosive round) be the same as M-Geschoss? They are listed to include tracers, but on the other hand they do not have any incendiary properties like 2,3,6 and 7. M-Geschoss never had tracers?
 

20mm M-Geschoss weighed 92g and (in the MG 151) had a muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
NOTE NEW ADDRESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/