The current Strat model, the game and realism - you may need a sandwich!

[Sparks]

A lot has been said recently about missions / strat / gangbanging and other problems that people see.  I think that HTC is doing a good job of trying to keep two diametrically opposing views happy but it could be better.

I think that for the most part the increased team work required in the game is a good thing - the mission planner is a good tool and base capture by mission is a blast.  But conversely I can say that being on the end of a 2 or 3 to 1 outnumbering and being rolled back by repeated mission strikes can get old quick.

The problem for me is how on/off the whole strat system is.  If the fuel is down then you can only take 25% - 50 planes could take 25% but you can only take 25%. If 1 Fighter Hangar is left anyone can still launch unlimited fighters at will. In 15 minutes you go from no fighters to fulll availabilty.  With one convoy or goon an airfield changes from dead to full up. One town building up means the field is uncapturable.

At the moment no-one bothers hitting convoys or trains for strat reasons because you miss one and thats enough for the whole facility to rebuild.

So how do you balance it and give the lone wolf fighters, the lone wolf buff pilots, the mission organisers, the "outnumbered in the barrel" defenders all a game when they log on ??

I suggest the answer is to make the current strat model more realistic but taylored to game play. You need to make the use and replenishment of resources more proportional.

So a fighter taking off from a field takes full tanks and DT's and eggs - those go off the field total to be replenished when the next convoy/train arrives.  So if a big mission goes then the field totals drop by a proportionate amount and don't get replened until the next convoy. Now it makes sense that a single convoy may not carry a full mission load so the base doesn't get fully replenished.  Another mission may take the base down to bare defensive minimums which stop further missions upping.  If the depot is down or damaged then only a percentage of the replen arrives.  As fighter and bomber hangars get damaged then the availabilty of aircraft at that field diminishes proportionately.  Rebuilding of fields takes a proportionate amount of goons / convoys / trains.

Also make bases capturable according to their strength - fall below a certain percentage of planes available and buildings standing and the base is open to capture.

I hear the howls of the anti-realism boys already but hear me out.

So how does this help the game ??

Well for one it stops the big mission steam rollers. You launch a 20 or 30 plane fully loaded mission a couple of times from the same base and then there simply isn't the fuel / ordanance to launch another untill the convoy arrives.  You take a base by completely plastering it with a mission and it takes SEVERAL goons or convoys until it is rebuilt enough to make  the resources available.  This will make mission planners and participants much more careful on what they use and strike.

Two it means that outnumbered defenders can still slow or stall an offensive by getting behind their attackers and hitting their resources to attack - if a mission has left a feild and failed then stop repeated re-ups by strafing convoys fuel tanks etc.

Three it stops the 2 field neverending furballs that go on for hours because constant re-upping or large numbers of fighters uses resource faster than it can be replened - the fighters are forced to move on to another base.

Four due to the fact of (three) above it should give the fighter pilots who want to just log on and find a fight more oportunities to find 1v1 or 2v2 fights as those who want to know they can keep re-upping will disperse to other quieter airfields.

Five it gives the lone buff pilot who wants to do a few missions but know he/she is helping something useful to do by giving them the opportunity to degrade the enemy's ability to strike.

Six it encourages defending fighter pilots to be agressive becasue every downed attacker has taken more resource from the attacking airfield - shoot down a fully loaded Jug in your 25% fuel Spit and youv'e dented them more than them you - at the moment it makes no difference - they just re-up and come back.  If you are attacking and know that resources back home are getting low you may be more inclined to be cautious if there is defending fighters.

Seven it stops the sneak base takes (which I love to do) - a single person in a Lanc may be able to degrade a base but not take it to a level where it can be taken - as it is know a single Lanc can down the town, bail and come back and goon it - I know I've done it several times.

Eight it opens up the strat model for HTC - trains can deliver more than convoys, maybe barges even more.  Ocean convoys can supply to ports and then on.  Strafing a convoy and destroying 50% of the trucks delivers only 50% of the replen ... and on and on.

In my opinion it would open up the game in so many ways - you could log on and find anything you want to do - go lone wolfing in a fighter, go bombing anywhere you want, organise a mission - what ever - you could be as team or solo as you wanted but it would all work for your country.

Well - what do you all think??

[Linux_gene3]

I like your ideas that you have posted. But most people will say this kind of setup if for the TA or AT Tatical arena were no one goes to play.

The problem is people pay for aces high to take up what ever plane, any time, and place, and field. This is sort of give the tatical side away exp you want to play in a arena were there is no one online.

Now me on the other hand, would love to try to take out a city or field with a squad. But its completly useless. You have 2 choices, LARGE numbers or a small squad that works well together. This is my view on the current system.

Also you are faced with little kidys trying to be fighter pilots. And as such, they want to lurnch in the fastest and best AC so they can go and shot down the enemy.

Another point i would like to talk about, is people who jump into fights were they are not really welcome. For example, Last night i was watching one of my team mates battel it out with the Nik pilot. The nik pilot got the uper hand, " good on him " and killed my team mate. Now i could of gone screaming down and saved his little bitty ass, but i would haft to catch the flames they put up about people stealing there kills. But after the fight between the two guys, i just left the nik to regain alt and fly away. But most people in the MA will come screaming down and shot up anythink and everthink for FRAGS.

This is my current view on the community, I dont mind batteling it out with 1V10 fighters. But give fighters pilots somthink else to shot at. Instead add more ground targets, add more Trucks and also trains. But when adding in more ground targets and also Trains make shore a P47 can kill it. Instead of fireing about 2000 rounds of 50cal into the bloody train to see nothink happen to it.

I have found my intrest starting to fad away from aces high because of these main aspects that need looking into. But i wont tell what game i am currently playing because of the flames that i will get in the process.

[eddiek]

Good ideas, Sparks, not perfect, but fair to all I think....
One thing I would like to see in the strat system is the ability to damage roads and railroad tracks and make them unpassable.  Bridges to take out and stop resupply, wipe out a section of railroad track so the train has to stop there or be destroyed when it jumps the tracks.  Same with roads.....crater them badly enough that the truck convoy wrecks or has to stop.

[mrsid2]

I never bother with convoys or trains since I've ended up dead every time I tried to kill one. It takes 3-4 passes to kill the engine and by that time the train ack has killed me every single time.

[ergRTC]

I think it sounds like a great system.  I have killed a train and landed to tell about it.  Had a b26, emptied all forward guns on it, and just by pure luck put som 250s in its direct path.  What happened to my plane?  All guns but the upper turret were destroyed.  One wing was damaged, one engine out the other losing oil, both flaps knocked out, no landing gear on oneside.  Did I mention I had to ditch the plane in a field full of sheep?  what is wrong with the guys running the guns on a CV group?  Maybe they should take lessons from the train guys.

I think under the proposed system, people would complain, but no worse than now.  So you want to fly that ultra heavey jug, just take off a little way back from the frontline, like you should.  If you want to fly that g10 or spit 9 all you need is fuel and ammo.

I think this would be a great addition to the main arena.
And hey! Cant hurt to try it.  in the ma not the ct or some other place nobody flies.

[Tac]

FIELDS right now have a serious downside to the resupply problem.

That is, resupply is NOT resupply, but REBUILD. 1 m3 or goon drops 1 crate and every gdamn building and fuel comes up instantly. Thats bollocks.

Changes:

1) TIME DOWN timer PAUSES if no supplies received every X minutes (where X is the time it takes for TWO supply convoys to arrive at town).

2) If a field does not receive supplies every X minutes (where X is the time a supply convoy takes to arrive), the field loses 25% fuel.

3) Bringing in a resupply goon/m3 should REDUCE the rebuild time in fields by 25%, rebuild time can only be reduced to a minumum of 25%. This will GET RID of the BS of buildings popping up instantly when resupply comes in.

4) CITIES, FACTORIES, DEPOTS can NOT be resupplied. Their down time is set in stone. If its down, its down baby.

5) Assign AT RANDOM a certain set of planes to each FH. This way killing FH's will deny the enemy the use of certain planes. The more FH's, the less planes avaliable. Having all planes enabled down to the last FH is lame imo. Imagine if the n1k, spit and la7 FH's were brought down out of luck.. wow!

6) Destroying ammo and fuel factories disables depots (no more trains or trucks come out of it) until these factories are rebuilt.

7) Add a resupply loadout to M3's/Goons labeled AA. This would bring up 5 AI AA guns and all manned AA guns in field when dropped.

This would bring back the role of the bomber since stuff wouldnt be "rebuilt" instantly.. bringing down a depot and factories and HQ and cities would really hurt the opposing side. Attacking supply convoys would reduce the capability of an enemy field, by reducing fuel on back fields you can actually keep the cons off your back for longer.

[lemur]

I've commented on this in other threads but my suggestions basically boil down to this:

Resupply shouldn't mean instant rebuild, instead resupply should mean faster rebuild. And we basically need another link in the 'factory -> depot -> field' strat system.

There should be some sort of 'rebuilding asset' (warehouses?) near the fields. The health of this asset determines how fast damage is repaired.

This asset can get built up to 100% by automated resupply, but can be built up to over 100% by manual resupply (but anything over 100% gets 'used up' over time)

So when a field is resupplied, it'll just start growing back faster not instantly grow back. If you 'over supply' a field it'll just have a temporary 'fast regrow'

Add in the concept of different types of resupply (ammo, fuel, troops and building) for goons, and trains/convoys have one unit of each type (so if you take out two trucks from a convoy, the field only gets the resupply types that survived) and regrowth becomes even more involved.

So now the strat chain becomes 'factory - > depot -> warehouse -> field'

Health of the factory determines how many supplies get delivered to the warehouses and the health of the warehouse determines how fast the field gets repaired.

Basically, there's now a strat target right by the field that can be hit to slow down regrowth. And with 'local' supplies available, the amount of time a factory is down can also be increased (factories would also have their own local warehouses for building supplies)

Phew.

~Lemur

[lemur]

Oh yeah, a few more things:

Since the Factories are now resupplied via the same warehouse system you get two more benefits:

1) Regrow time on factories can never be faster that a certain amount.
2) You have a city and the health of that city determines how fast the factories regrow.

This represents not just bombing the factories, but also the assets supporting the factory (a la 'bombing of Berlin')

The 'city' target is effectively the 'building supply factory' and it cannot be made to regrow faster.

Mind you, the city should be the most heavily defended target on the whole map (ack / aa guns) and take huge amounts of damage to destroy completely.

[Sparks]

Well it seems by at least the first replies - and thanks for reading guys - that we seem to have a similar view of the current strat system.

I must admit to being very keen on the usage aspect of supplies though as well as the pure resupply side - I think it is the key to leveling the playing field when the numbers are unbalanced among the countries.

I think Tac hit on most of the current greivances - particularly the situation with cities and factories - they should go back to how they were before or follow my pattern for airfields but rebuilding requiring many trains / convoys /barges.

I also agree that roads and railways should be damageable but only by explosive ordanance and only acurate hits.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Sparks


Three it stops the 2 field neverending furballs that go on for hours because constant re-upping or large numbers of fighters uses resource faster than it can be replened - the fighters are forced to move on to another base.

This is the part of the plan that doesn't sit too well with me. I wouldn't want a MA that is only Base Warrior. I really enjoy those big never ending furballs. Unfortunately if one were to implement your other suggestions, this aspect of the game would indeed suffer. Not good imo.

Perhaps one alternative would be to paste the "Furball Area" off the Dueling Arena map into existing terrains, just move it 15 or 20 sectors off into the corner. Then exclude the 3 bases there from any of the MA strategic/tactical settings. Just make them unnukable bases for the furballing crowd. That way you've got the ability to tailor the bulk fo the MA towards this more strategic flavour you mention. At the same time you allow those that a) don't care about that part of the game and just want to furball, or b) are just up for a quick fight then gotta scoot the ability to continue to play in the MA. That would appeal to both sides I'd think.

Vortex

[ergRTC]

vortex, I dont think there is any way (or reason) to get rid of the furballs.  that will happen no matter what.  Even with a very mature strat system, furballs will be constant.  I dont think the intention of any of this is ending furballs, I think this revised strat system will just end some of the silly strat side things (well not silly to those who make missions).

  Convincing the rest of the world to hit strat targets is something completely different.  A furball that grows out of the defence of a base against an incoming mission is completely expected.  Those of us that make it through the furball and lay some eggs would just like to see that damage last a little while and mean something.  Particularly when it is a strat target.

As it stands now (at least last night): Mission =11 lancasters to hit 34 from 20k.  9 make the target.  First wave hits base and takes out fh and bh.  5 min later, after I circle back from pounding the town, I start a run on the base.  'well looky here' every single fh and bh was back up. 5 fricking minutes.  I know you have all exp. that as well.

[mrsid2]

Thats nothing erg, last time I took off in a bomber I went to bomb a small field in lancaster. I killed the VH and all FH and still had an egg or two left..

So I remained there circling the field and then decided to try to drop them on the city if there were buildings up. By the time I got there though it was already strafed..

So I turned back to the field I bombed a couple minutes earlier.. And surprise surprise.. VH and 1 FH was already up even before I left the field. In a couple more moments the rest of the FH was up and kept popping up even as I dumped my rest bombs on one and another rook finished it. It makes no sense whatsoever..

[Sparks]

Vortex

This is the part of the plan that doesn't sit too well with me. I wouldn't want a MA that is only Base Warrior. I really enjoy those big never ending furballs. Unfortunately if one were to implement your other suggestions, this aspect of the game would indeed suffer. Not good imo.

Aa good point Vortex but I think I may have not put that part of my suggestion too well.  Furballs are definitely part of the game and a part that many fighter pilots enjoy and as you say, if you just want to log on for some fun and go again, that aspect of the game needs to be available.

What I think is unhealthy for the arena is when these furballs stall over a couple of well known points on each terrain consistantly and endlessly - I can think of a few straight away - A1 / A43 / A48 on Mindano,   A9 / V10 / P14 / A12 on Baltic,  A5 / A3 / A4 / D64 on Mindanao,  Centre Island on NDIsles.  You end up with a neverending stream of people upping 1 after the other and no actual progress or change.  When the fight stalls over these areas the furballers get what they want but the strat players get frustrated and tempers flare - you can watch it happen any weekend night.

What I hope my suggestion would achieve is that these fights would naturally decay and the battle would be forced by resources to move somewhere else. Furballs wouldn't disappear but would move around the map - surely if you just log on for a fight it doesn't really matter where it is and if it moves in 30/40/50 minutes then move with it.

I think the key to the MA is to keep the flow going - in my experience bad feeling arises from two places - people getting gangbanged due to numbers and feel they can't do anything about it and strat people getting wound up at furballers who won't "get organised".  IMO it wouuld be better if the strat stalemate dies by natural causes forcing the battle to move and the furballers can just move with it.

Just my opinion though - I'd really like to know whats inside HTC's head on this.

[hazed-]

see TAC BIBLE(tm) above..........

his word is good, follow the GHORD!!!!

NO follow the shoe!!



seriuosly TAC is RIGHT whoopee it.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Sparks
A lot has been said  

I would agree with alot that is said above...........certainly the convoys should be the only AI resupply/ rebuild method and the general resupply system needs more balance.

On point touched upon by Sparks  is th idea of zones or zone limits (as they were called elsewhere)

Each airfield might have a zone limit (adjustable under the arena tables) which limited how many planes were allowed to be airborne (at any one time) that had spawned from that airfield.

The zone limit may be reduced by airfield attrition............

this has consequences for super missions,   icon overloading, and forces defence to be affected more proportionatley to quality of attack.

Tilt