defence against the spit

[pimpjoe]

since the arena is 90% spitfires, i need some advice against fighting them. it seems the only plane i can seem to beat these guys in is another spit. unless he's either getting ganged or already engaged in a fight and i bounce them. if not i lose every time. what do you guys do?

[dracken1]

hello pimpjoe.
as an avid spitty fan.i did get bored with it .
so after spending some time with p38,109-2 and f6f i settled with the f6. and now i find i can hold my own with a lot of spitty pilots,

granted a spit in experienced hands will probably get you.but as the ma seems to be full of them then most are going to be flown by begginers.

the secret is to use the spits inability to lose airspeed quickly against it.
where as the f6 with flaps will slow you like flying through tar
 go into a turning dive with that spit following you then slow down.that puts a lot of spits all over the place trying to slow to keep with you.

we all use different tactics  try the f6.

i was supprised by it as it looks like an overweight wrestler.

[Nifty]

If I'm not in a spit...  speed.  and friends.  or luck.  or a Zeke.    

Well, I'm only flying the CT nowadays, but we see our fair share of spits.  oh boy do we do.  almost all Spit Vs.  I'm only 5-4 against 'em my two days.  I can fly a 109 worth a nickel, so I just die with those.  

With a Ki-61, I try to come in with the E-advantage and either purely BnZ or E-fight it if I'm feeling saucy.   I BnZed one and got a few shots off, but nothing definitive.  A friendly comes in, and the Spit gets a little more fixated on the other guy, and I get a much better pass and pop him.  I escort the damaged friendly til he ditches.  Turn around, and here comes another Spit V.  I've got a little advantage, and make a pass, grab a little, and decide what the hell.  Reverse about 2.2k out.  come down and take him on the starboard side as he's coming up.  I pull up, check his turn, roll the lift vector on him...   repeat a few times, get the shot, pop a 2nd one...  oops, here comes another one!  higher than me, I've got no E...  I die after a few attempts to shake him.

Get a few more Spits in a C205.  Come in with the E and try to keep it as much as possible.  Constel got me a few times in his Spit in the process.  One was with me trying to fight ammo in his P-47D-30 at the same time.  

In the MA?  good lord, man.  Keep the speed.  fly with a wingman.  Nothing else will save you from the Spit hordes.  Know your turning limits.  A lot of planes can turn faster than the Spit in the short term, but after that, you're meat on the table.   Remember, in the MA, if you blow your E and get one Spit, the next 5 are gonna be right there clawing over each other to eat ya alive.    Heck, that even happens in the CT (my Ki story...)

[aknimitz]

Well, certainly one option is to take up another spit.  The HurricaneIIc works well as well as 99% of the spit pilots (V and IX) think they can outturn it - and they cant  

But, if you are wanting to fly your normal ride, and have a change against Spit pilots, I can offer a few words of advice.  I was looking at your kill stats and it looks like you like to fly the F4U-1D, P51 and Jug pretty much mroe than any other plane.  That accurate?  With regards to the Jug versus the Spit, please see the ntoe below on Jug vs Spit  Pretty good discussion in there with a link to a film as well.

With any of the three planes, you just cannot afford to get slow with the Spit.  You get slow, you will die.  That is because the slower the spit gets, the better it turns ... and the slower you get, the worse you turn.  So, first things first, keep fast.  If I were in a 1v1 against a Spit in one of those planes, I would never let my speed drop below around 225 (ESPECIALLY against a Spit IX since they accelerate so well).  

I remember visiting with RWY one time about how he would kills Spits in his P51D.  He would basically do a drag/rope type maneuver.  He would use the P51's speed to gain a little separation, and then go into a 2-3K/min climb - hoping the Spit would follow him up.  As the Spit continued to follow, he would increase the climb to 4K/min and drain the Spit of its E - roll down and pounce.  Now granted this is markedly more difficult to do against a SpitIX than a SpitV, but it works on both.  You MUST use the speed of your planes to avoid getting into a situation where the Spit's corner speed bests yours (pretty much anything below 200).  

If you find a Spit on your 6, say 1.2K back or so, and you have soem altitude to burn, burn it.  Go into a GENTLE 0G dive and hope the spit follows.  Get upto aroune 350 and hope the spit follows.  If he does, I would kick the plane into a defensive barrel roll and try to get the spit to overshoot.  It will not handle anywhere near as well as any of the three planes mentioned above at those speeds, and likely will not be able to counter your defensive roll.  If he comes in and tries, the engagement likely will turn into a rolling scissor, where at those speeds (>250) you hold the advantage.  As SOON as you lose the advantage, disengage with another 0G dive.  

Now, if you dont mind dying and want to have some fun and REALLY learn, its time to get nasty with 'em.  Lets take the P51.  If you have the right fuel load (<50%) and use flaps, you can really make a fight with the SpitIX interesting.  If you are a good shot, it only takes one reversal to get the shot you need.  Drex's commentary would be very beneficial here as this is his specialty.  One move that works I think particularly well against SpitIX if you want to get nasty with them is this.  Get your P51 to speed of around 250-300.  With a spit on yuor 6 and closing, drop a notch of flaps, and feign a flat scissors (say to the right).  Basically this is going to be a SUPER quick scissors.  I say SUPER quick because my normal flat scissor consists of turns around 60 degrees.  Here I am goin gto make a series of reversal QUICKLY with flaps down hoping to use the Spits accelrations to fly right through and give me my snapshot.  WHen I say quickly I mean about 10 degrees, if that.  YOu want to pull hard for those 10 degrees, kick rudder, roll, pull hard, kick rudder, roll pull hard.  WATCH the Spit on your 6, and make sure you are timing your pulls as he is crossing over you (much like you would in a scissor).  The reason this move works is because at those speeds, 250-300, your instanteous turn rate is better than the Spits.  So your reversals will be sharper, you will be slowing b/c of flaps and poorer acceleration, and the Spit will hopefully overshoot  Now, this move ONLY works if you have enough speed built up because its gonna cost a lot.  And if you run out, well thats not good  I've seen Drex do this a million times - so hopefully he'll chime in here and offer further advice.

I'm not sure what tactics you are using when you lose the fight, but I suspect you are just not being patient enough.  Take the time to setup your fight and fight on your terms.  

I hope some of this helps.  If you want lets go to the DA and I'll play Spit for you and let you work on some (or vice versa so you can get an idea of what I am talking about).

S!
Nim

[Apache]

One thing you may want to keep in mind is that a spit can recover from a mistake quicker than you may think. Usually thats what you wait for or try to induce. He makes that anticipated mistake and you pounce only to find he's not where he should be. Instead, he has recovered and is gaining a guns solution.

Lots of folks go for fakes I've noticed. On several occasions when higher than my target and I know he see's me, I have faked a power dive too his 6, only to roll right back out of it and gain my original altitude. Most try to nose down for speed then come straight up thinking they'll catch me on the way down. I'm not there. They are left hanging on the prop or inverted at the top of a loop and not enough time to recover.

Another is patience and ego. Extending in a fast plane, then coming back at an advantage is BCM. However, some turn back to early or don't even extend at all. They either get to impatient and give the spit an advantage by coming back at the spits optimal combat speed, not thiers or they stay at said disadvantage, determined to "get that spit".

Nim stated the tactics well. Their is a mindset to fighting the spit. You must do just that, fight the spit but on your terms, not his.

[pimpjoe]

not being patient enough. went back to some of my more familiar rides too and my success rate went up. i was flyin the 109g6. went back to the pony and didnt loose a fight.

[Spatula]

Agreed patience is definetly the key to winning a fight against a better turning, accelerating, climbing, better gunned opponent in a p51. If you try get into a contest in any of these with a spit you'll die farily quickly.

I dont fair spits at all, in fact my face lights up with joy when i see em - except if i know its Mitsu, funked or blade - in which case you better have heaps of E or be prepared to unceremoniously run like hell

The standard trick against a co-e spit for me is to encourage him to turn hard for your 6 after each merge. Where i just extended out to 3.5 or so and do a lazy chandelle style reversal. Allow him a little room on the merge (whilst avoiding any cheap HO) to think he can pull off a lead turn, let him do it, let him waste his E. Repeat untill you feel you have the E advantage, in which case a rope-a-dope style trick like RWYs works well, or he tries to escape. Either way at this stage he's all yours.

As for a spit d1.2 off ya 6 and closing. I normally go for a barrell roll defensive and see if he follows, in which case hes dead, as he will overshoot. Or i use the flat sissors (this is risky against hispano armed planes), or fake a sissor like someone else mentioned. The other move i use is a hard sharp defensive diving spiral. Riding black out all the way down the spiral. At the bottom you will have built up a comfy 400 MPH and no spit can stay with ya for too long - most will break off the pursuit, and endevour to reaquire you, but its normally too late as your long gone

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by pimpjoe
since the arena is 90% spitfires, i need some advice against fighting them. it seems the only plane i can seem to beat these guys in is another spit. unless he's either getting ganged or already engaged in a fight and i bounce them. if not i lose every time. what do you guys do?

I just want to point out that the arena is nothing like 90% spits.  They account for roughly 15 percent between the IX and the V if you look at the kill and death numbers.  I understand that you may be frustrated fighting them, but the reason is because they kill you, not that they are that numerous.

Part of the reason you were having trouble is that the 109G6 is a plane that is not much better than the Spit IX in most areas, and is worse in some others.  It means that you must be very careful engaging Spit IX's and do so from a position of advantage.  However, with an E advantage and careful management of it, you can still beat them.

[Don]

PimpJoe:
I generally fly anything but a Spit. I kill a lot of them and get killed by them. Hehe, with so many of them, what are the odds right?
I find a fast plane with decent turn ability and good climb ability will even the odds against you. The trick for me is, as with fighting against any TnB plane is not to turn with it, and keep fast.
I will use verticle turns more than anything else.
Now this assumes that the spit isn't one of many spits. If not, then get the hell outta there and wait til they come down from 20k plus and commit to action. Mostly though I try not to fight them on their terms.