Is the F6F-5 the new Niki?

[214thCavalier]

Verm dont be offended by anything in my previous post because that was not the intent.
I can fully understand avoiding fights with better turning aircraft unless you have an advantage, hell i do that all the time eg i will stay and have a go around with a spit9 but will soon bug out from a spit5.
I also am well aware of the vagaries of online gaming and i did say you enquired politely
Feel free to do some testing on any aircraft in AH i will take you totally seriously, but to make such a N1k comparison when the stats showed you fought them 8 times in 2.5 months well i could not stop myself posting

Now being totally serious the F6 does not have magical zoom or std climb ability, it will however zoom very well if held to a 2 or 3 g climb IF you have bags of E at the start.
There are also methods in a loop fight against a better climbing and faster plane to predict there flight path and once commited do an unloaded roll to new predicted vector and actually get your gun bearing on the target zone before the enemy even gets there, this could look like your being outclimbed when in reality all that happened is the enemy "took a short cut"
Pre 1.08 i actually think the F6 was more fun to fly because of the stall, but it was obvious the flaps were porked because all they did was add drag without lift, now though it is a much better killing machine
To explain the reason you died in our encounter was simply you stayed fighting inside too long, then dived away to escape. At this point i did have a large Aot, but knowing the F6, instead of a fast pull to line you up then dive, all i did was enter a low G spiral diving turn (this is where you thought i was flying away)  the terminal velocity was much faster doing this and enabled me to catch you very quickly.
The initial diving acceleration of the F6 is much better than the La7, to try to dive away from a coE position  is to invite death.

[fdiron]

Just going from memory, I am pretty sure the F6f shot down more aircraft in the PTO than any other allied aircraft.

[Durr]

Negative on that.  Actually I believe that the P-38 holds that distinction.  The Hellcat shot down the most of any Naval aircraft in the PTO.
(source for that fact was smithsonean institute)

[Badboy]

Originally posted by Shuckins


This is my first post/reply, guys, so be kind!

Nice read Shuckins, welcome to the boards!

Badboy

[wells]

Despite these "fixes," the Hellcat never overcame it's "low perfor-
mance" reputation. Many sources routinely repeat the "pre-fix"
performance statistics, giving the F6F-5's top speed as 386 mph.

I have to disagree with this.  An F6f-5 was flight tested.  The report is here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/fighter.htm

However, notice in the report that the WEP power was not to spec and that the critical height was a bit low.  Restoring the power and critical height results in the 386 mph figure that is quoted in a lot of sources.   The -3 and -5 did have different IAS readings and thus, different correction factors.  They are in the pilot's manual.  The true airspeed has those correction factors applied.  I thought I read somewhere (maybe it was William Green) that it was the XF6f-6 that was 409 mph capable, with 4-bladed prop, more powerful engine, further cowl refinements, etc...

[F4UDOA]

Actually Durr your about 180 degrees backwards on that.

Kills in the PTO during WW2.

F6F Hellcat=   5156
F4U=   2140
P-38=   1700
F4F/FM=   1006
P-40=   706
P-47=  697
P-51=  296
P-39=  243
P-61=  63

Source Barret Tillmans Archives

I have a detailed Navy/Marine breakdown of all recording Naval and Marine kills of WW2 down to the type of A/C killed and all allied losses due to all causes and sorties flown. I have never seen any Army docs on any major type defining kills and losses in ariel combat.

Funny if you read most Military history books they would make you think the AAF won the war in the Pacific with the P-51. But as you can see it recording almost a nominal number of combat kills. The P-38 was the dominant Army type but was only third on the overall list.

[eddiek]

I too wonder about the F6F's top speed.  Kinda hard to explain how two planes can be flying side by side in formation, one indicating one airspeed, the other reading 20 knots slower............
Grumman kept the F4U for testing for quite some time, and from all I can see, the F6F and F4U had almost mirror image performance above 5K feet altitude.
With all the political BS going on back then, is it possible that the "corrected" numbers were just left out, rather than admit a mistake?
I talked to Pyro on the phone a few months back and he said he knew about the issue, or alluded that he did.  Whether or not it will be corrected in AH, or if it is even worth fixing remains to be seen.

[wells]

Here's what's in the pilot's manual.  The first pic shows correction factors for the -3 and -5



The next one is a chart showing stall speeds in the landing configuration at various weights for the F6f-5.  



This is what it says for the F6f-3

[Hooligan]

Well.... the F6F is good enough at most things to almost be a dweeb plane (now that the stall modeling has been changed).  If it had a couple 20mms it WOULD be a dweeb plane.  Sadly 6 .50s just isn't quite enough firepower for it to make the cut.  I believe a minimum requirement for dweebishness is 2x 20mm, so I stand corrected.

Hooligan

[Saintaw]

Errm, dunno about the Nikki thingie, but I can tell you that I used to be able to do nilch in the F6F and that I now fly it regularly (my only ride if I take off a cv). It's now one of the most stable plane to fly in, has nice all round characteristics. verry easy to fly now.

[Shuckins]

One of the gentlemen in the above posts stated that, as far as he knew, the F6F was not used extensively as an energy fighter.  Having read extensively about the air war in the Pacific it is safe to say that nothing could be further from the truth.

Energy tactics were the only kind that could be used against the superbly manuverable Japanese aircraft.  The manuverability of every American fighter produced before 1945 wasn't worth a fig against them, at least at speeds below 200 knots!  The one rule that was constantly drilled into Navy and USAAC pilots was this:     "Do NOT dogfight with the Zero!"

The tactics employed by almost every U.S. fighter squadron were to dive, pull lead,  fire, break away and climb back to altitude before the enemy could react.  Any U.S. fighter jock who habitually tried to dogfight with the Zero was begging to get clobbered by one of the old masters or any talented newcomer.

Just how effective these tactics could be was demonstrated by Eugene Valencia's division of four Hellcats of Vf-9, flying off of Lexington.  Between February and May of 1945 Valencia's "Mowing Machine" achieved 43 confirmed kills with at least that many probables which, because of the fast paced combat could not be confirmed.  None of the four members of the "Mowing Machine" got so much as a single bullet hole in their fighters.  With the seven kills that Gene got on a previous tour that made a pleasing round number of 50 kills for the division.

Forcing the fight in the verticle denied to the Japanese pilots the use of their manuverability.  They had to stay and fight on the American's terms, and they lost.

Respectfully,  Shuckins

[Don]

>>I believe a minimum requirement for dweebishness is 2x 20mm, so I stand corrected. <<

Hehe, not where I come from  In another sim/game I flew, many who flew the f6f were know as dweebcats  It was the recommended a/c for newbies. It was very forgiving and allowed the TnB types to get kills...and then die
I've noticed that the sight of F6Fs in the MA is becoming more frequent but, for me that doesn't mean that it is an Uber plane. It may be the easiest plane for new pilits to fly. As for cannon as a prereq. for dweebs, I submit that a standard for dweebs is that the a/c must be able to turn until the cows come home. There are few a/c that fit that bill with the exception of those discussed already. But for every cannon armed TnB a/c there are many more cannon armed a/c that will kill you if you don't fly them properly within their envelope.
I have noticed though that, contrary to what has been written about the F6F and the F4U, both plane types have lousy climb and turn characteristics, and not compared to other US planes but, compared to nme plane types as well. The F4U was supposed to be a master at the spiral climb; I haven't found that at all. The F4U with its big prop and engine was to have been aided in a respectable climb rate, not so in the mA. It is routinely outclimbed by many a/c. But, I suppose thats a topic  for another thread

[214thCavalier]

Check deja's Tour 24 stats http://www.dbstaines.com/TourStats/Tour24/Tour24.htm
fighter vs fighter and you come up with this,

F6F-5 with 4.49% of total fighter vs fighter kills,  that ranks it as seventh most prolific killer.

Out of 38 aircraft listed in use in a  kills per death rating it comes in 27th place with 0.841 kills per death.

This is purely fighter vs fighter no GV or AA  deaths distorting the figures.

Hardly Uber status.

To me it suggests its getting used a lot more yes, but not very effectively by the masses.

I suspect it will be getting even more use as at least 1 squad has started using it as there main ride.

[AKEagle+]

Stats are what you make of them, but notice that there are about 20 non-perk planes that have a higher K/D than the F6F.  Many of those are of course close.

It would seem that a uber plane would have a  better K/D than a mediocre .841.  Again, I'll bet the usage would plumet if there were a better plane for carrier attacks.

Notice that planes like the 190 A5, YAK 9U (what a babe!) and Ki61 have pretty impressive K/Ds, yet are relatively low in usage.

My point being that usage is hardly a measure of uberness.

If the YAK 9U had a decent ammooo loadout, the puppy would be perked IMHO!

And if the A5 were a allied plane, you bet your booties the puppy would cost you at least 10 pts

But then what do I know?  I'm just have a computer and I can type (well sort of) !  LOL!

AKEagle+

[pimpjoe]

"F6F the new N1K"