my thoughts on ACM

[Kronos]

It appears to me that most people seem to think that ACM simply means turning and turning your plane against the enemy's plane until one of you is dead, regardless of the plane that you are in.
Also that you should never use altitude to gain an advantage, and that if you are extending, then you are running.

Lets take an example, and I am not trying to flame the individual that I was up against, but it is a very good example of ACM and Air Tactics.

Im flying a P47d11, and my opponent is in a Ki61.  Ever since the "Fire in the Sky" setup, I have come to respect the Ki61 more than any other plane in the AH inventory.  The Ki61 is the only plane that I will ever think twice about before engaging.

Ki61 strengths (according to my observations flying against it)

Good low turning ability
Very Good acceleration, even in a dive
Fairly fast
Good armament

Weakness :

climbing above 15K


P47D11 strengths

good armament
using flaps, has some small ability to turn low and slow
can take lots of hits
good diving ability
fair climbing ability especially above 15k

Weakness

most planes out turn it
most planes out accel it
most planes out climb it

Now, the situation was this : we were about 15K when merging, I had higher alt, and better e advantage to start with, so I started to B N Z the Ki.  He was able to smartly out manuevar me, and I began to lose e advantage, and we had dropped to 11K.
As I was still b n zing, I still had some advantage in e, but he was on my 6, less than 1.5k out.  So, I began performing a chandelle, (slow climb turn allowing me to gain alt and keep speed up) and our spiral climb began (I was using wep to keep as much distance as possible).  below 15k, he kept slowly gaining on me, almost to a 1.0k distance, but once we hit 15k, he began falling behind again. At 17K, I turned off wep, knowing that he couldnt catch me then.  By 19K, he had fallen back to 1.7k distance, and over channel one came this :

Ok youve officially bored me by climbing to 20K

The ensuing conversation led me to believe he simply thought I was running away, and didnt want to fight him.

and he peeled off and headed for base.  Now my plan had been to gain enough alt advantage over him that i could come back around on him and continue the fight on my terms.  Didnt happen cause wilbuz came around in his 190 and killed me  .  (As he does almost every time)

The only advantage in a p47d11 that i have is to outclimb the ki61 so as to continue the fight on my terms.

I submit.  This is using tactics to maintain an edge on an opponent.  I try not to back down from fights, but I am not going to fight on someone else's terms.  I make enough mistakes as it is, and flying an average plane, I have to use what i can to try to win.

Part of ACM is to use the plane's strengths that you're flying in against the weaknesses of the opponents.  Energy fighting is the hardest form of ACM to do, not only because it takes patience, but because it is so easy to make a mistake and lose the advantage.  In the CT, I will not hesitate usually to furball with a 109 or a 190, as many of the LW pilots will atest to.  Japanese planes are impossible for me to do this with, as they simply turn too well.  I am more willing to fight a N1k2 though, than I am a Ki61.  I have to use the strengths of my plane v that of the enemy if I am even to have a chance.  Also, in doing so, I am even willing to HO an enemy, especially those flying japanese aircraft, because I have to take any shots I can get.  Another example, of me v a Ki the other day, we merged at about 10k, and I HO'd first pass.  Unlucky for me, im a terrible shot, even with 8 0.50 cals.  Anyway, as he was an able pilot, he got right in behind me and I had to dive to get away, which was ineffective anyway.  On the deck he closed, and I started scissoring, forced him to overshoot once, pulled up behind him with flaps down and fired.  Again due to my terrible shooting I missed.  He came around, and this time with an e state which matched mine, nailed me.    He gave me credit for good evasives, but didnt like the fact that I HO'd him.  I explained myself, and he seemed to understand.

ACM is asmuch about altitude, e state and positioning, as it is turning ability.

Plz, correct me if im wrong.

[Tac]

Ki61 has horrible accel and not-so bad dive (not great by any means).

It may look like it has good accel because it can make turns without much loss of E.

Aside from that, I agree.

[Löwe]

Great Stuff Kronos!

It's the age old arguement in on-line sims. The Turn and Burn crowd complains of the Boom and Zoom crowd, running. The Boom and Zoom crowd complains the Turn and Burn crowd won't hold still. Whataya going to do???????

[Toad]

"Good ACM" is anything YOU successfully do to avoid being shot.

"Bad ACM" is anything the other guy successfully does to avoid being shot.

[deSelys]

I agree 100%, Kronos.

Toad, all I can say is that I see my opponents doing much worse ACMs those days

[Mr Hanky]

A pilot logs into the CT and finds he is the only one flying for the Axis.  5 people were flying allied at the time.  A quick check of radar shows two cons coming north out of A45.  The pilot grabs a Ki-64 and launches.

As he's rolling, he sees two cons coming in.  One at about 5k and one at 10k.  He levels on the deck trying to get his speed above 250 as the low con turns out to be a Spitfire.  A breif couple of turns proves fruitfull as the Spitfire stalls too near to the ground and augers.  The 10k con has disco'd.

The pilot lands and replanes.  He gets to about 6k before he bumps into the same Spitfire pilot.  The engagement is over pretty quickly, though the Ki pilot has moved closer to A45 now.  He notices a con upping from A45 and heads that way... taking a minute to nail the VH ack (northern most) as he notices the con reverse and actually land back at A45 after a rousing 45 second sortie.  He heads back towards his own base as he notes two cons launching from A45.  There's a chuckle issued as he sees A44 has been captured by the Knights.  The term "Milkrun" is thrown out on channel 1.

When it becomes obvious that the con isn't going to reverse and land (down to one now... no idea where other one is) the Ki pilot turns to engage him.  The low Spitfire (about 2k) makes some violent moves and then goes verticle... soon loosing a wingtip.  About this time... somoene gets on ch. 1 and says something to the effect of "I'll give you a fight".  The pilot politely asks if the Ki pilot is "OK"... illiciting a "?" in reply.  Then the pilot calls in.

Now.. the "in" call somewhat confused the Ki pilot.  He looks around in all directions and doesn't see any aircraft.  Then he looks up.  At about 15k there is a con... the Ki is still around 4k.  The pilot noses down and tries to build up some speed in hopes the plane blows the pass... Spitfire pilots do that.

It takes some time for the higher con to descend and the Ki has almost made it back to base before the plane comes into icon range.  It turns out "In" means "I'm diving my P-47D-11 from 15k on your low and slow Ki".  The Ki should have said "thanks" for the "in" call.

The Ki reverses trying to keep his speed as the P-47 thinks about an HO then decides to extend.  This is repeated about 4 times.  Fortunately, a couple of Axis pilots log on and launch from the nearby field.  The P-47 doesn't want to have much to do with them as he climbs away.

Finally, the Ki was able to grab a little alt since the P-47 was avoiding the 190s that had recently launched.  The Ki pilot made it all the way up to 10k before getting the  P-47's attention again.  The P-47 was at about 15k at this time.  Its close to co-alt... if you're telling the other side of the story.  The P-47 dives down on the Ki who is flying towards him.  The Ki noses down to pick up speed as the P-47 dives past him trying for a snapshot... reversing below him to climb away.  That leaves the Ki behind him and slower.... but not that much slower.  The Ki manages to stay about 1.7k back and about 1000 feet lower... hoping to keep the P-47 busy while the 190s grabbed some alt.

The P-47 just kept flying away... and kept flying away... and kept flying away.  It was one hell of a defense.  The Ki pilot got bored and left.. saying as much at the time.  That's when the P-47 decided to show how much fun he was by engaging the two lower 190s.  The Ki pilot hovered above and watched him die at the mercilesly to one of the 190s.

-------------------------

However you chose to fly is your decision.  To say how the P-47 pilot is flying is "smart" is simply rediculous.  Its nice to try and paint it as if this were an "all things being equal" engagement... but two people there know that wasn't the case.

When there is such a small amount of people on-line... its amazing how someone will rely on being able to grab a huge advantage in some aspect.  My God... entering a fight by calling "in" with a 10k alt advantage is not "equal".  When things get closer to "equal" you run.

That Ki pilot is 2:2 against P-47s this tour.  All of them in fights where everyone was engaging and having a blast.

There's a big difference between extending because its smart and extending because you don't know any better moves.

Any questions or arguments on the flight... give me an e-mail address and I'll send you the film.  I kinda doubt you'll get the same offer from anyone else.

[Kronos]

that first flight u talk about I came from 47.... I was already in the air when u first logged in.  I called out to ask if you were ok, because if you were damaged I was willing to let u rtb.  You didnt answer, so, when I came in visual range from a higher alt, I called in, so that we might have a good 1 v 1 fight.  YOU NEVER EVEN TURNED.  You kept heading for base.  I did a shallow dive to see if you were interested in fighting, then as u neared base, I pulled up to keep from running into an ack fight.  Most pilots wouldn't have even bothered to ask if you had been damaged in the other fight.  DONT PLAY HIGH AND MIGHTY WITH ME.

[Mr Hanky]

I just checked the film... I did land.. replane and relaunch.  I didn't have much ammo... especially when the only shot I'd hope to get is a 700 yard "while he's leaving" burst.

You just took the opportunity to climb a tad bit higher then the 4 passes... and so on.  Sorry, but the whole thing took so damn long I forgot I landed twice.

Continue flying smart in the arena.  And in the odd event that someone calls you on it, come here for moral support.

Amazing how 1 minute after being called on it you were mixing it up on the deck not being so smart afterall.

[Lephturn]

Who cares?  Fly what you wanna fly and fight how you want to fight.  You can only control what YOU do, so don't bother worrying about what the other guy does.  Try to shoot him down, and try to have a good time.  The rest is details.

[Wilbus]

Agree with Kronos, HO too, is a form of ACM (although not a smart one in my book) however, to complain about HO is BAD, if you can't avoid a normal HO, sepcially on the first merge, you have no buisness in flying at all.

#1. Mode stick left till your plane is banked

#2. Pull stick back till you have turned a bit.

[Hangtime]

Kronos.. win. Anything that gets you the advantage and gets the other guy into a parachute or a dirt nap is good 'ACM'.

Folks get 'duel' mentality confused with 'Arena' mentality. If the guy with a better T&B plane thinks yer a turd fer blasting him into confetti when he slides off the rope a dope or lines up a HO, just smile. Yer a live turd, he's a dead duck.

Personally, I never pass up a HO shot.. he can break, trade rounds or ram. I already made my choice, and I ain't 'chicken'.. I'll take the fediddlekin shot if thats what he wants, or he can dodge... but that's just me... I just don't give a damn about scores and a fresh plane is only 1 second away.

If the duck wants a fair fight he better stay the hell off the pond during hunting season. I love it when the ducks quack after they get smacked.. means yah did the job just right.

The DA is for 'fair fights'. The CT and the MA are about getting an adavantage, holding it, whuppin up on the guy severely while you hold the advantage, and gettin the hell outta dodge when yah don't.

'Never turn to engage. Turn to kill.' Capt. Willie Driscoll, USN

[Kronos]

MrHanky, in all reality this was not meant to be a flame on you, really.  If you feel like it was, I apologize.  My "moral" was that I see no other way to gain an advantage on the Ki, other than outclimbing it over 15k.  If you see another way, plz post it, and I'll try it.  Turning doesnt work.


Qoute from my original post :

In the CT, I will not hesitate usually to furball with a 109 or a 190, as many of the LW pilots will atest to. Japanese planes are impossible for me to do this with, as they simply turn too well.

And you're right, after dealing with you I did have a 190 (I only saw one) come at me.  As I said above, I am more than willing to scrap with 190's as the d11 will outturn the plane. (atleast the a5).   Unfortunately for me, it was wilbuz, (and I dont think he was in an a5, cant remember) therefore I couldnt outturn him at all.  Had I known ahead of time it was him, I would've prolly tucked tail and ran for home, as I was getting low on fuel anyway.

If you are flying a 190 in the CT arena, I am more than happy to scrap, as I have a fair chance of winning in a furball.  If you are flying a Ki61, well then, until I find another weakness, I must do as I have done in the past.  (If you catch me low and slow on the deck, I have no choice but to furball, as the KI beats the d11 hands down in acceleration on the deck.  Im betting odds I'll lose though.)

Anyway, this is my last post for this thread.

[Raubvogel]

What is this "A-C-M" thing you guys keep talking about?

[Leslie]

Lephturn and Hangtime said it best.  I agree with them.

Raubvogel, you better ask Hangtime what ACM is, cause he knows.  LOL:)

Les

[Löwe]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
What is this "A-C-M" thing you guys keep talking about?

Stands for Air Combat Manuver, except in my case it stands for
"AHHH Can't manuver"