my thoughts on ACM

[Pepe]

Originally posted by Mr Hanky

For some reason that escapes most.  Once again, if you are only supposed to engage with an advantage... who the hell are you supposed to engage?

Shane  

[mauser]

I've heard certain people brag that if they were given a TnB plane like a Spit, Zeke, etc. they could evade a BnZ plane's gun passes all day.  Given Kronos' situation, if I were in the P47 and saw a Ki-61, I'd fight it out for a while.  If the Ki could evade all my snapshots and I found myself suddenly co-E or worse, you bet I'd get out of there.  Conversely, I flew axis during that period and took the Ki-61 since it's the closest thing to a 190D, and I tried to fly it that way.  What did I want ami planes to do in a fight?  turn.  Hellcats were more problematic since they turned well, especially when light on fuel (I usually don't take light fuel loads, but given that it's an option...).  Once in a while in the MA if I am pissed enough I will take up a spit v or zeke to furball.  For anything that can outrun me, there is nothing more that I would like them to do than turn, or attempt to stick around.  There are some who can do this well for a while even in faster a/c, but generally it's not so.  

There are those who fly AH for the fight.  They don't care about living or dying since this of course is a simulation.  Some of these folks can get multiple kill sorties in the midst of the worst odds before they buy it (IF they buy it).  Then there are those that fly to get some semblence of immersion, of the "real thing."  Personally, I fit in this category.  Will try to return to base as much as possible.  Get out if the fight has gone bad.  I can see how each of these flying styles can be seen as boring from the other side.   That won't stop me from flying how I want to.

Sure in real life you were ordered to fly (with your squad or element) at certain altitudes under certain circumstances depending on mission.  Sometimes, you were put at an advantage, sometimes disadvantage.  In the "Green Hearts, First in Combat with the Dora 9" book, there is a passage where the doras were ordered to fly at a disadvantage despite knowledge of the weather and the fact that it was known allied fighters were ABOVE (I think it was to fly above a cloud layer under another that was filled w/allied a/c.. prime case for bounces).  The flight leader (Hans Dortenmann, 38 kills, 18 in the Dora when the tide had already turned) who was given this order thought it was lunacy and suicide so he disobeyed, probably saving the fledglings under him to live another day.  He got in trouble with the LW high command, but his geschwader kommodore got him off the hook (Pips Priller was good to his men).  In AH we can pick and choose on our own, they of course couldn't.  We should be happy to have this choice in our sim, there should be no need to dread if today will be "your turn" or not as they did.  

mauser

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Agree with Kronos, HO too, is a form of ACM (although not a smart one in my book) however, to complain about HO is BAD, if you can't avoid a normal HO, sepcially on the first merge, you have no buisness in flying at all.

#1. Mode stick left till your plane is banked

#2. Pull stick back till you have turned a bit.

Gotta disagree fully here.

The front quarter shot as the HO often refers can be a last resort. I never take take it though in a 1vs1 as I prefer to earn my kills. Jousting, however, is another situation that the term HO is often used to refer to. It has absolutely nothing to do with ACM. Simply put, its a tactic of those lacking skill or the fortitude to force a fight beyond the simple nose on pass, extend, rev, nose-on, extend, ad infinitum format. Unfortunately its also a cornerstone of Jousting High and goes a long way to degrade what would otherwise be an excellent sim. As it sits, however, with the prevelance of the joust in this game it can only ever hope to be second rate insofar as the degree to which it encourages actual ACM. Air Warrior, as an example, was leaps and bounds ahead in this regard simply because it forced you to fly for, and earn, a kill. Jousting High has no such demands.

Avoiding it is irrelevant. The fact that it is used as a staple by many has already degraded the experience. Stearing away from the joust warriors is just a result of it being in the game...and you'll employ that for at least 80%+ of your encounters.

Complaining about it isn't bad per se. It is pointless though as it is a staple of HT's games and will never change. Warbirds always had this failing, and Jousting High carries the tradition. That's my gripe though, I just loathe the joust. In due course it will get the better of me and I'll undoubtedly move on as well, just as with WB's. Heh, not that anyone will lose any sleep from that :->. But it invariably annoys me enough that all fun is sapped from the game.  The more I fly, the closer I come to that point.  *shrug*

Edit: P.S. Wanted to note as well that I realize with the more complex approach to damage modelling used in the WB's/AH evolution, that preventing the joust becomes much harder than was the case in AW where you simply threw out the bulk of front quarter shots. Rather, my point was that that doesn't make it any less cheezy a "tactic" (and I use that term loosely), and certainly doesn't justify it being clasified in any way as something one works for or earns insofar as kills go.

[Hangtime]

Hiya Vortex..

Allow me to dance with you on the front quarter and HO pass issue for just a bit.

Have you ever read Cunninghams account of his meeting with Maj Tomb? In order to reduce the lateral seperation at the merge and thus giving an even larger turn advantage to the turn rate superior Mig he opted for a close HO pass with that Mig.. and narrowly missed catchin 20mm cannon fire in the face as a result. (the f4 was gunless)

I'm in that situation every time I meet an opponent in AH.. get close, or give up angles.. not many planes turn worse than my pony, giving him some 'room' means giving him angles after that merge.

Choices.. dodge early, obtain seperation and give up any chance  post merge for an angles edge... or face him down, force the other guy defensive early and do what I need to do.. get past him with minimum seperation. If I get a shot, I'll take it. If he ducks the shot, I'm still ready.. and commencing my initial turn (the best one a hot pony has) with as much of an advantage as that situation can muster.

HO's are REAL... and the front quarter snapshot at 15 degrees AON subsequent to the 'HO pass' is where I get a fair portion of my kills. If gunfire is exchanged in the HO merge, hey; thats part of the close lateral merge and angles fighting.. as done in RL, and not 'handicapped' by a bogus gamey 'damage lockout' on front quarter shots as done in AW.

I don't do it to be a HO dweeb,.. I do it to get that initial turn angle and rate advantage the plane I fly so desperately needs to stay in the fight after that 1st merge. In a bogey rich enviornment, the time it takes to work a guys AOT down to a rear quarter shot is all too often the diffrence between success and a nylon letdown. I'll take the close HO merge followed by a 15 degree AON shot any day when flyin in a populated area..

Duels are flown diffrerently than Arena engagements... more time = better options than a HO Hot merge.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Hiya Vortex..

*snip*

HO's are REAL... and the front quarter snapshot at 15 degrees AON subsequent to the 'HO pass' is where I get a fair portion of my kills. If gunfire is exchanged in the HO merge, hey; thats part of the close lateral merge and angles fighting.. as done in RL, and not 'handicapped' by a bogus gamey 'damage lockout' on front quarter shots as done in AW.

Howdy Hangtime,

One thing I should probably emphasize right out of the gate is that it certainly isn't my intent to argue that the elimination of the front quarter is in any way realistic. You are bang on in that it is indeed "gamey"...but then so is everything else about these sims. There's far more unreal about AH (or any sim) than there is real. The difference is so great that I've never looked upon any sim I've flown as being anything but a "game" that in no way is realisitic. It may try to incorporate snippets of "realism" to add depth and whatnot, but these are at best just that, snippets. In the end the enjoyment of the game must take precedence and "realism, by definition, can only be an after thought filling in holes that gameplay itself allows for. So I certainly don't disagree with your statement above...handicapping the front quarter is indeed gamey, and that's exactly why I like it. It forces more gameplay (i.e. complex flight maneuvering), which is exactly what I want to pay for.

I spend a lot of time in the FwA8 as well as the Jug. Both of which are of course far worse at maneuvering than a 51 (B or D). So I certainly see where you're coming from insofar as one's ability to work the joust as a staple of ones diet. However I just choose not to even though they are indeed the most available option. I much prefer working for a high deflection or rear aspect shot. You are exactly right as well, it is harder, and I die a lot in the process. But I enjoy that challenge. I also come across, albeit rarely, folks that fly in a similar way. Regardless of outcome, those virual pilots earn a big chunk of my respect when the fight is over. For most that isn't worth a pinch of racoon crap mind you, but I mention it nonetheless.

I don't do it to be a HO dweeb,.. I do it to get that initial turn angle and rate advantage the plane I fly so desperately needs to stay in the fight after that 1st merge. In a bogey rich enviornment, the time it takes to work a guys AOT down to a rear quarter shot is all too often the diffrence between success and a nylon letdown. I'll take the close HO merge followed by a 15 degree AON shot any day when flyin in a populated area..

Duels are flown diffrerently than Arena engagements... more time = better options than a HO Hot merge.

I think a big part of the need to take that front quarter shot in a bogey rich environment is an "if I don't, he will" type of motivation. And it is indeed justified based on the model here. Eliminate the front quarter though and that all changes. Nevertheless, I still avoid those shots like the plague here. I  prefer to work for the rear aspect shot, and definitely will if its an even odds or better fight.

That isn't what I would call "jousting" though. The joust relaly emphaiszes the unwillingness to tighten up the fight at all: i.e. do a nose to nose merge firing all the way through, extend to a point of guaranteed safety, reverse, rinse, repeat. Never work the vertical, never take the fight in close (heck I burn Spits et al all the time with an A8 by gettig slow and betting on a kill shot in the first quarter turn), never push the envelope taxing both you or your plane. Now I'm not saying you fly one way or another...unfortunatley I really don't know how you do .  Rather that's just the two sides of it as I see it. The most unfortunate part in my mind's eye is that with the front quarter available a vast majority of new pilots to these games learn only the joust, nothing more. To be honest one can't really fault them either...it is the easiest type of air to air combat to learn. Therein lay the rub though...it might be more realisitic or the like, but it just isn't better gameplay imo. As always though, that's just my two bits on it anywhoo.

[Hajo]

Kronos    well stated

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Vortex


That isn't what I would call "jousting" though. The joust relaly emphaiszes the unwillingness to tighten up the fight at all: i.e. do a nose to nose merge firing all the way through, extend to a point of guaranteed safety, reverse, rinse, repeat. Never work the vertical, never take the fight in close (heck I burn Spits et al all the time with an A8 by gettig slow and betting on a kill shot in the first quarter turn), never push the envelope taxing both you or your plane. Now I'm not saying you fly one way or another...unfortunatley I really don't know how you do .  Rather that's just the two sides of it as I see it. The most unfortunate part in my mind's eye is that with the front quarter available a vast majority of new pilots to these games learn only the joust, nothing more. To be honest one can't really fault them either...it is the easiest type of air to air combat to learn. Therein lay the rub though...it might be more realisitic or the like, but it just isn't better gameplay imo. As always though, that's just my two bits on it anywhoo.

I really don't see this as a problem.  If somebody wants to try HO shots at me all day every day, let them.  If we go through a merge and the opponent goes for the HO shot, I can easily avoid it.  Not only that, but proper approach to the merge means that I gain angles and E as he overshoots below me post merge.  Even if the other plane has a speed avantage and an E advantage at the start of the fight, it doesn't take very many merges like that for me to hold all the cards.  My point is that although newer pilots may try the HO, the experienced sticks will slaughter them for trying it.  Most folks quickly learn that the HO shot is a bad risk, and they don't use it as much.

Do you really die to head-ons at the merge very often?  I almost never do... I can't even remember the last time somebody nailed me in an HO shot at a merge.  If you are getting hit in them, it's easy to counter and come out with all the cards.  Once you learn to do that, he goes HO and you immelman, and the fights on unless he had a ton more E to start.  Maybe it's because I fly the Jug mostly, so most folks don't risk HO'ing that nasty gun set but I see folks try the HO pretty infrequently really.  It's far more common for somebody to execute a good lead turn on me than an HO shot.

Just a note, if you are having trouble with the HO's, you'll need to try and merge below your attackers nose, and a bit to one side.  Make it so that he has to be diving down to get a HO shot.  At about D 1.5 or so, execute a short pull or roll to ensure you stay out of his guns, and by about D300 transition that into a lead turn in the vertical.  If he tried to HO you he'll very likely not only miss, but overshoot below you AND have flown straight for longer giving you a big angles advantage.  Unless the plane performance matchups are quite extreme (Zeke vs. P-47 for example) and the attacker started with a large E advantage, the fellow trying for the HO shot will hasten his demise greatly.

That said... if you are NOT doing enough to spoil the shot, there are plenty of crack shots here that will take it.  If you are willing to fly straight at them and not shoot back... they'll take it.  Heck, I'd take it in my Jug.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Lephturn



Do you really die to head-ons at the merge very often?  I almost never do... I can't even remember the last time somebody nailed me in an HO shot at a merge.  If you are getting hit in them, it's easy to counter and come out with all the cards.  Once you learn to do that, he goes HO and you immelman, and the fights on unless he had a ton more E to start.  Maybe it's because I fly the Jug mostly, so most folks don't risk HO'ing that nasty gun set but I see folks try the HO pretty infrequently really.  It's far more common for somebody to execute a good lead turn on me than an HO shot.

Oh, no, I don't have much of a problem avoiding them, and other than the rare occurance typically don't even take hits from them. This is strictly a pet peeve, albeit a pretty extreme one at that. And one I'll be first to admit I hold in the minority. Call it personal preference more than anything really. I just find the game leaps and bounds more enjoyable when the front quarter is removed as a possible shot area.

[deSelys]

Originally posted by Vortex

I just find the game leaps and bounds more enjoyable when the front quarter is removed as a possible shot area.

Maybe it suits the planes you're flying, but front quarter shots are extremely important in nose to nose turns, where you can turn inside a normally better turning opponent because you're slower and your turn radius is smaller.

Besides, front quarter shots aren't HOs. In a properly executed front quarter pass, you're able to shoot while your opponent can't.

[Lephturn]

Basically, DelSys said it well.

If you remove the front quarter shot, you disadvantage the radius fighter over the rate fighter.  It basically throws away a third of your ACM... no two circle fights,  turning into the bandit becomes a defense all on it's own... yeck.  It might be a fun game, but it's not ACM if you remove the front 1/4 shots IMO.  Heck it even limits your options at a merge to an extent that I wouldn't enjoy.

Oh well, I guess you enjoyed that limited form of ACM.  I can see how it would change things.

[Tac]

The only HO I dont condone is the one that is repeated to no end.

Some pilots have made HO their only way. See spit d5.0 , it turns to you.. goes for HO. No prob, I would too. Gain a bit separation, spit is d4.5 level, you turn to it, now a bit lower than he is (to keep speed).. spit inmediately loops up and dives in for the HO.

Repeat till HO suceeds. They dont try nothing else. Not even when they get 5k alt advantage or more.

The great majority are newbies who only know how to turn hard and spray until they get a kill.. and this jousting syndrome is so effective on a spit and the n1k that many times its the only thing you get. Sadly, the arena is full of spits and n1ks too

[Vortex]

Originally posted by deSelys


Maybe it suits the planes you're flying, but front quarter shots are extremely important in nose to nose turns, where you can turn inside a normally better turning opponent because you're slower and your turn radius is smaller.

Besides, front quarter shots aren't HOs. In a properly executed front quarter pass, you're able to shoot while your opponent can't.

I fly stallfighters and B&Z planes alike...Fw's and Jug's for the E-fighting mostly and Hurri's and Yak9T's for stallfighting...for the most part anyway. I manage to get kills while working for the rear aspect shots with any of these. Its very doable. At the same time I also get popped by the front aspect shot I miss or don't see coming.

The limit to ACM that Leph mentions really doesn't happen, nor do you in any way lose the two circle fight. At least that defintiely wasn't my experience. After all, you're just talking about a low angle snap shot, nothing more. A two circle fight certainly isn't required for that. I used to do it all the time in AW flying the Jug exclusively. I don't know if you've ever tried the AW Jug back then (early-mid 90's), but there is no comparisson in AH insofar as radius fighters go. Take the biggest pig here, multiply its deficiencies by a factor of ten, then strap a piano onto its butt and you've got the AW Jug. It took work and patience (and there's the reward) but I used to get lots of kills in that without any front quarter shot available. In the end though, the two circle was far from removed. It was enhanced if anything, you just couldn't get sloppy like you can here.

Indeed you do limit one small aspect of the envelope but if you're depending on that to get your kills you're simply limiting yourself and your abilities. I've certainly never needed em and from where I sit I pretty much completely suck at this game. Allowing them opens up the dark side of the front quarter though, and Tac outlines it quite well in his post. Granted, as you guys mention in certain situations the front quarter may be a viable option (i.e. not a joust in this case). Its hardly a fundamental aspect of ACM though. Its a snap shot at a reduced angle, nothing more dramatic than that. I've just never seen it as needed when it comes with such huge baggage;  open up that angle and you also allow for, and encourage, the joust. That's where the cost outweighs any possible benefits imo.

Just to be clear here too, I'll be the first to admit that this is a part of sims now and isn't going anywhere. I'm defintely not on any crusade to change anything. That would just be a waste of everyone's time, most improtantly my own. When the joust warrior format finally irks me enough, which it invariably does, I'll just move on. Defintely not a biggy. In the interim though that doesn't mean I have to like it or agree with claims that its some sort of venerable tactic. The joust is still kinda cheezy imo.

[Lephturn]

Yep, joust is kinda cheezy.. mostly because it's a bad risk and both die a lot of the time.  The way I see it though, you only get a joust of you both take the shot.  I almost never take the shot, I jink and use it to gain advantage.  The instant you do that, your into a good ACM fight in my books.  It's like tango to me, it takes two.  If I avoid and counter, there is no joust IMHO.

Honestly, the HO bugged me a LOT when I first came to WB way back when.  Then, a wise man (Worr) taught me how to deal with it, and I've never had a problem since.  The first rule is, if you fire at him, your an easy target.  Once you get past that, it's as simple as evading at D1.4 or so and then doing a vertical lead turn from slightly below him.  Once I understood that, my frustration went away and I got into the real meat and potatoes of ACM.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.  If you ever feel like you want to work on countering HO merges, feel free to email and we'll hook up for some training.  Although it sounds like you can handle your ACM just fine, I thought I'd offer just in case.  That goes for those reading this as well.

Though Vortex I don't think you really need this, I want to post an article I put together about countering the HO effectively for others that are reading and may be interested.  It can be found here:  http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm

I really  need to re-write that, and only the first third is about the HO really, but it's good advice.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Kronos.. win. Anything that gets you the advantage and gets the other guy into a parachute or a dirt nap is good 'ACM'.

Folks get 'duel' mentality confused with 'Arena' mentality. If the guy with a better T&B plane thinks yer a turd fer blasting him into confetti when he slides off the rope a dope or lines up a HO, just smile. Yer a live turd, he's a dead duck.

Personally, I never pass up a HO shot.. he can break, trade rounds or ram. I already made my choice, and I ain't 'chicken'.. I'll take the fediddlekin shot if thats what he wants, or he can dodge... but that's just me... I just don't give a damn about scores and a fresh plane is only 1 second away.

If the duck wants a fair fight he better stay the hell off the pond during hunting season. I love it when the ducks quack after they get smacked.. means yah did the job just right.

The DA is for 'fair fights'. The CT and the MA are about getting an adavantage, holding it, whuppin up on the guy severely while you hold the advantage, and gettin the hell outta dodge when yah don't.

'Never turn to engage. Turn to kill.' Capt. Willie Driscoll, USN

hangtime, what is this bible of truth and wisdom you keep quoting from? Ive checked all the bookstores but it seems only you have access to the 'book of truth' hehe

seriously hangtime is dead right.DA for fair stuff.If you dont want to get shot while landing, fly to another safer base.Dont want to be bounced by higher con? fly higher.Dont like Ho's? avoid em'!.

its really that simple.

[Vortex]

Aye Lephturn, agreeing to disagree isn't at all a bad thing . As well, thanks for the offer and the link. As mentioned earlier I usually don't have much trouble avoiding those HO shots, nevertheless that doesn't mean there won't be some pointers there that come in handy. I'll certainly have a look over it.

You may well be right too in that with time these things pass. Jousting for me is like most pet peeves...it doesn't have to do anything to me directly for it to get under my skin. Just the fact someone is trying it usually is sufficient  Hehe, a bit silly, I know, but then we all have our little quirks . Again, perhaps this feeling will indeed change in time. Here's hoping!