The Hispano and Tank busting.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Hooligan
I believe the Germans made only two types of ammo for the Mk108 30mm (the 30mm in AH):  HE (Mine) and HE/I.  Neither of these rounds would have much armor piercing ability.

Hooligan

Generally correct (in fact, the mine shell was an HEI, achieved by mixing some aluminium powder into the HE). There was a pure incendiary, possibly used mainly by Schräge Musik installations for firing into fuel tanks.

One curious fact; quantities of MK 108 ammo dumped in lakes after the war has been recovered, loaded with Hartkern!!! I can see no earthly use for this, as the muzzle velocity was far too low to make this worthwhile. I can only presume that right at the end of the war, the supply of mine shells dried up so they loaded whatever they had to hand, on the grounds that it was better than nothing.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Tac]

imo, pzrs and flaktanks should be killable by bombs and rockets only (killable as in blow up OR kill their turrets). 50 cal and 20mm IF they hit from a side and from tree-top level should blow their tracks.

M8's should be vulnerable to 20mm but not 5 cal (unless they hit the wheels)

M3 and M16 should DIE when the get peppered with anything.

[humble]

I was always under the impression that all tanks in general are vulnerable to fire from above. The critical angle for richocet's is 38 degree's so coming "straight in" at a 90 degree angle isnt required to be successful. My understanding is that the engine grating is the real weak spot. Most tanks destroyed by strafing were the result of engine fire or damage....also have read about p-51's and jugs killing tiger tanks by firing into roadway (rear attack) and igniting fuel with ricochets off pavement.

[Don]

Yeah But....the pz4 didnt have armor all around it. It, like most tanks had heavy frontal armor, the sides not as thick but, the rear was prolly it's weakest spot.

[Raubvogel]

Originally posted by humble
also have read about p-51's and jugs killing tiger tanks by firing into roadway (rear attack) and igniting fuel with ricochets off pavement.

Were those the same P51 "tankbusters" from Saving Private Ryan?

[Urchin]

Well, I don't have any books on the Panzer 4 (or any other tanks lol), but I did look up a website:  

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm#panzer4

They have armor information on two varients there.  I believe we have the H version, which isnt listed, but the G version is.  

It goes like this :  Position: Armor Thickness/Armor Angle

Front Turret: 50/11
Front Upper Hull: 50 or 50+30/10
Front Lower Hull: 50 or 50+30/12
Side Turret: 30/26
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/10
Rear Upper Hull: 20/12
Rear Lower Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/85
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 50/0

The SAP/I could penetrate no more than about 20mm armour, at short range given a favourable (ie head-on) hit.

Favourable means what here?  I am not a munitions expert, so explain it to me like I am an idiot (which some will argue I am anyway).  I would assume that 'most favourable' means a zero degree of deflection in the armor plate.  So the Hispano, if I am right, could have no chance of penetrating anywhere on the tank except the top and bottom of the hull (and I'm not sure what role, if any, the armor angle would play), or the top of the turret?  And would I be correct in assuming that it would have to come in at a near vertical dive and get within a few hundred meters before firing to even penetrate that?  Same goes for the .50 caliber, and the Mg151/20 would have an even tougher time getting through the armor (which does in fact seem to be the case, at least personally).

[funkedup]

I wonder if some of the exploding panzers aren't just commander kills?  You can use the commander's MG, which means the tank is unbuttoned.  That means a strafing plane could hit the commander's body outside the turret and/or put some rounds through the open hatch and into the turret.

[Urchin]

punt.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Urchin
Favourable means what here?  I am not a munitions expert, so explain it to me like I am an idiot (which some will argue I am anyway).  I would assume that 'most favourable' means a zero degree of deflection in the armor plate.  So the Hispano, if I am right, could have no chance of penetrating anywhere on the tank except the top and bottom of the hull (and I'm not sure what role, if any, the armor angle would play), or the top of the turret?  And would I be correct in assuming that it would have to come in at a near vertical dive and get within a few hundred meters before firing to even penetrate that?  Same goes for the .50 caliber, and the Mg151/20 would have an even tougher time getting through the armor (which does in fact seem to be the case, at least personally).

You are correct. The USAAF/RAF gun armour penetration figures I quoted before were generally measured at about 200m, and involved striking at 90 degrees (or 0 degrees, depending on which convention you favour). Penetration fell off increasingly rapidly as the striking angle became less direct, although the rate of fall-off depended on the design of the projectile; there is no formula which will give you this. Yaw was also a factor (ie the degree to which the bullet wasn't travelling point-first - particularly a problem at short range before the bullet stabilises in flight, and can also be caused by hitting anything en route to the target). The following extract about the .50" from my next book illustrates this:

"The official requirement for the M2 AP was to penetrate 22 mm steel at 183 m (the M8 API was expected to match this figure at 92 m). The striking angle is not specified but is assumed to be 90º. Official US tables for the M2 show penetration at 300 m as follows: 21 mm / 90º, 13 mm / 60º and 5 mm / 30º. These measurements were to the USN criterion which called for 50% of shots to penetrate. British tests at 183 m determined that the M2 would penetrate 21 mm at 0º angle of yaw (i.e. the bullet was flying perfectly straight) but this dropped to 15 mm with only 10º of yaw (such as might be caused by passing through an aircraft’s skin before hitting the armour). Taking the effects of striking angle and fuselage structures into account, it seems likely that the practical penetration of either the M2 or M8 was in the region of 10-15 mm in normal circumstances."

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Doberman]

Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II lists the H turret top armor as being 15mm at 84 - 90 degrees.   Superstructure is 12mm at 85 - 90 degrees and the hull is 10mm at 90 degrees.  

I don't really bother with anything down on the ground, so I have no firsthand knowledge of tankbusting.  I'd have to say though, that even with a bit of added energy from a diving airplane, a .50 from an M2 would not be a reliable penetrator if Tony's data is correct.  Taking into account the vagaries of construction & quality, previous damage, etc, certainly not impossible.  But it's not likely that a .50 armed plane should be popping Panzers like grapes.  Are they really?  Do we have film examples on guaranteed unharmed tanks?

D

[Tony Williams]

During the 1944-5 NW Europe operations, an Operational Research team from the RAF trekked around the battlefields as soon as the enemy had departed, examining German equipment and assessing the reasons for its destruction.

Their conclusions were that very few tanks were destroyed by any form of air attack. On average, they found perhaps one-tenth the number that the fighter-bomber units were claiming. Those which were destroyed in this way were generally hit by rockets or bombs.

This is discussed at length in Ian Gooderson's "Air Power at the Battlefront:  Allied Close Air Support in Europe 1939-45" which is required reading for anyone interested in this subject.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Tony Williams]

Now that I'm back with my sources, I'll add a bit more to the AP performance figures.

Realistically, an attack on the roof or decking of a tank is not going to be made at better than 60 degrees, with 30 degrees being more likely. Furthermore, it's not going to be at very short range. So let's take 300m range and strikes at 60-30 degrees as typical.

As I posted before, the .50" M2 AP could penetrate between 13mm and 5mm in these circumstances (with the smaller figure being more likely).

The MG 131 AP could similarly manage between 7mm and 3mm

The MG 151 15mm AP (non-Hartkern) from 19mm to 12mm

The MG 151 15mm Hartkern 24mm to 12mm

The MG 151 20mm AP between 12mm and 8mm

The 20mm MG-FF AP between 9mm and 6mm

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Urchin]

The Hispano would be similar to the .50 and Mg151/20 rounds, correct?  

Also, those figures are for AP rounds- are the planes we have in the game loaded with AP rounds?  I don't believe the German planes are, but I don't know about the U.S. and British ones.  

Oh, and as far as Hispanos 'popping Panzers like grapes', I'll do some ground attack runs in a Typhoon and film myself doing it.  I watched a Tiffie strafe 3 or 4 tanks, he killed them all in a single run.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Urchin
The Hispano would be similar to the .50 and Mg151/20 rounds, correct?  
 

Given proper AP rounds, the Hispano would be significantly better, but AFAIK the US M75 AP shot wasn't used in Europe. The RAF loaded only HEI and SAPI according to my info, and the SAPI was about the same as the .50 M8 in AP performance.

The .50 AP M2 and API M8 were both in widespread use (from 1944 onwards, I think the M8 almost replaced other types completely). The 20mm MG 151 AP was also in common use, but only as a small percentage of the typical ammo belt loading; perhaps one in five, or two in five at the most.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[flakbait]

Panzer IV H Armor Specifications from German Tanks of WW2.



Hull Front: 80mm (3.1 inch) @80º
Hull Sides: 30mm (1.2 inch) @90º
Hull Rear: 20mm (0.78 inch) @78º
Turret Front: 50mm (1.97 inch) @79º
Turret Sides:30mm (1.2 inch) @64º
Turret Rear: 30mm (1.2 inch) @74º
Turret Roof: 10mm (0.39 inch) @74º

Remember now, AH uses combined ammunition types based on the most common belting used during the war. That would probably explain a lot of the strangeness here.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond