Author Topic: The Hispano and Tank busting. (Read 971 times)

Urchin · « **on:** February 10, 2002, 03:41:00 PM »

Waaa-Piiiiiiish . I just had to get out this dead horse and whip it some more. Was driving around in a Panzer today for kicks, trying to kill another Panzer. The other Panzer spotted me first and started firing off shots at me. Me not being a very good tank gunner, I fired off a few smoke rounds in between us just so he'd leave me alone till I got closer. At this, a Spitfire appeared and tried to strafe me. He came in high, so I couldn't shoot back. I'd guess he had about 1 second of firing time. In that second, he obliterated my poor Panzer.

Was the Panzer IV this wimpy IRL? Why did they bother putting big ol 75mm and up cannon on there? They should have just put a quad mount of 20mm "Hizooka" cannon- surely those are more effective at killing tanks (and if they weren't in real life then something is wrong with the copy of AH I D/L'ed, because they sure as hell are here).

Or perhaps a different route... was the Hispano THAT good against armour? I can understand it being good against planes, don't have a problem with that, it is absolutely fine with me. But TANKS? BUILDINGS? Come on, there is no way a few rounds of even well placed Hispano cannon are going to take out a friggin tank, much less a building. Also, as far as I can tell (in other words, from first hand experience only)- only the 23mm cannon on the IL2 approach the lethality of the 20mm hispano against tanks. The 20mm Mg/151 isn't worth a nickel against armor, nor are the 20mm cannon on the La7, La5, and Yak. I've blown 400 rounds of MG151 on a Panzer and had him trundle away completely unharmed, and on the other side I've taken an La7s complete clip (AND 2 of those teeny bombs they carry) in a Panzer with no effect at all.

So WHY is the Hispano so effective against tanks in this game? Was it really that good in real life? Has any got any evidence one way or the other (because I sure don't)?

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2002, 04:18:51 PM »

Urchin,

I don't think this is a problem with the Hispano. I think it is a problem with the Panzer. The Panzer is too easily killed by all guns (other than 75mm AP rounds:rolleyes: ).

Urchin · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2002, 04:57:56 PM »

I think you are right, but like I said before- I've taken an entire clip from an La7 before, and damn near spent an entire clip in the 190A5 (and I didn't even see any damage, much less kill him).

Witless · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2002, 05:07:22 PM »

Hi,

The only thing I can bring to this discussion is that the Hurricane earned the nickname Tankbuster against German armour in North Africa. Does have 4 Hispanos though.

Cheers
Witless

Tac · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2002, 06:00:03 PM »

Perhaps against Pz2's and P38t tanks. but a pz4.. no way, that thing has waay too much iron for a 20mm to penetrate.

OTH, it DOES and SHOULD blow the tracks if you hit them. Remember that most disabled tanks are counted as "kills"

JoeCrip · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2002, 06:33:04 PM »

I agree, i could empty a 190 a-8's (w/30mm) ammo into a pazner, and it chugs along, but I made 1 pass on a pazner in a p38 firing 50 cals only, and boom it went. Plz Fix!

Fatty · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2002, 06:41:35 PM »

I dunno, agree it's more of a weakness vs guns in general. 109f4 with gondolas is my favorite tankbuster.

Urchin · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2002, 06:42:56 PM »

And you have success killing tanks with the 3x20mm cannon? I never seem to kill them by strafing, I can sometimes get the kill by strafing the hell out of them and then someone comes along and puts a rocket or bomb into them, but not just by strafing.

Fatty · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2002, 06:47:02 PM »

Yeah, edited to get more to my point but after you'd replied. Any of the smaller cannon planes it's very easy to come at a near 90 degree angle very close and still pull out easily. A good burst at a good angle like that and they're done.

Same with the spits, ki-61, I prefer any smaller plane really because it's very fast to climb 4k for a dive, and easy to dive low speed and still pull out.

hazed- · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2002, 09:49:27 PM »

50 cals dont kill tanks.

20mm do but only weak thin areas like engine grills and the very top of tanks where armour is thinner.
A panzer being hit anywhere else would just chip the metal unless it was very close when fired I'd say.

I dont see why we have such an easy time with 50 calibre and such a hard time with mg151,mg131,mk108,etc etc all higher calibre (slower admittedly) but much more powerfull.
Otherwise why did the 190 pilots on the eastern front describe straffing tanks as they hid in haystacks and destroying them?

Ive seen pictures of russian tanks all shot up by 20mm in a book on 190 aces.light tanks admittedly but the armour looked fairly thick.Hispanos no dout would work too but not all over a tank.Make it a skill to kill tanks in AH i say.

I believe the 37mm was used on stukas right? well how different is the 37mm to 30mm in rate of fire and velocity/explosive fuel?

I can bust tanks quicker in p47s than 190a8s i know that.

Tony Williams · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2002, 02:59:35 AM »

A complicated subject - the more I research it, the more complex it becomes!

First, the weapons and their ammunition. The standard British Hispano loadout from around 1942 onwards was an equal mix of SAP/I and HE/I. The SAP/I could penetrate no more than about 20mm armour, at short range given a favourable (ie head-on) hit. There was AP ammo (the USA made some) which pushed the performance up to over 30mm, and the British also developed a tungsten-cored shot capable of 45-65mm penetration, but this was never used.

The .50 M2 AP or M8 API were also capable of penetrating around 20mm maximum, in the most favourable conditions at up to 200m.

The 23mm VYa could penetrate 25mm/500m (striking angle not specified) - it was much more powerful than the Hispano.

The MG 151/20 was much less powerful than the Hispano. It did, on the other hand, have AP ammo in regular use which was capable of penetrating up to 24mm at short range. The 20mm ShVAK also had API ammo which was probably capable of around 20mm at short range. The 15mm MG 151 was much better and there was a Hartkern round capable of penetrating around 40mm.

These performances (with the possible exception of the VYa and MG 151/15) are clearly not good enough to penetrate the vertical armour of any medium or heavy tank. Tank roofs were only around 10-15mm thick early in the war (although the German tanks went to 25mm and even 40mm at the end). The problem is that all of these penetration figures assume a favourable striking angle. To attack the roof (unless you catch the tanks obligingly climbing up a very steep slope) this means a near-vertical dive, which you have to pull out at some considerable height to avoid crashing.

On the other hand, it wasn't always necessary to penetrate tank armour to disable the vehicle. Any of these guns was capable of knocking tracks off, and if lucky bullets might even slip through engine cooling louvres and cause havoc there. If a tank has been evacuated because of the risk of air attack, it is also possible that the hatches had been left open - again, an easy target.

So, while early generations of tanks were certainly vulnerable (the French found the Hispano quite effective against 1940 era Panzers) by 1944 the main battle tanks were fairly safe against aircraft gun attack - at least, from the RAF and USAAF. The Germans and the Soviets both fielded specialised anti-tank aircraft carrying large cannon which were certainly capable of penetrating tanks.

The German 30mm MK 101 or 103 could penetrate a realistic 40-60mm (up to 100mm at best) with Hartkernmunition, the Soviet NS-37 around 48mm/500m, the German BK 3,7 up to a mximum of 140mm at very short range with Hartkern shot, and the BK 7,5 would flatten anything it came across.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
NOTE NEW ADDRESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
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Vladd · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2002, 12:25:40 PM »

I think a PanzerIV who gets showered by 20mil from directly above is going to be hurting, albeit probably not completely destroyed.

More of a problem than the damage modelling is the sheer ease of identifying a single tank from a fighter flying at several thousand feet at 300mph. All terrain in AH is effectively totally open for visability purposes, which means the tankers never have anywhere to hide.

I can understand why this makes sense for gameplay - but for gameplay maybe the panzers armour needs to be thickened to compensate...?

Vladd

Hooligan · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2002, 12:31:23 PM »

I believe the Germans made only two types of ammo for the Mk108 30mm (the 30mm in AH): HE (Mine) and HE/I. Neither of these rounds would have much armor piercing ability.

Hooligan

Raubvogel · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2002, 01:02:21 PM »

It would help if the Panzer wasn't Day-Glo Yellow.

SpinDoc1 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2002, 01:28:20 PM »

I agree about the Day-Glo yellow

. I think the tank should be modeled to accomodate for engine grills and weak spots in the roof. The other less vulnerable roof areas should then be stronger. I don't know how easy the panzer (or any vehicle) model would be to modify, but I would like to see some changes! That's just my piece though...