Brave?

[easymo]

Miko. was the 9.11 attack a crime?

[Dinger]

One question: Where did TT say this? Anybody have a source?

[fd ski]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

And fdski your ever growing hatred and contempt for numerous aspects of decent western civilization is simply mindboggling. now you say all of Christianity is akin to the lunatic extremist fringe of recent militant modern day Islam. Why do you hate yourself and your culture so much? Were you abused as a child perhaps?

Wow somebody starts a thread about left wing USA bashing and all USA haters just jump out of the woods, and all of them are supposedly in the military.....

Seek help child.

---------
Gunthr,
I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today.

Killing in the name of God has never been exclusive to one religion, and chistianity thoughout the history has proven to be just as murderous as Islam.
Interesting study of habits of Islam conquerers in southern europe as compared to Christian ones has been published while back. They seem to have been much more tolerant to other religions ( including Jews !!! ) and far better behaved to local populace.

As for quoting passages of Koran proving premissability of murderer, we can also do same with bible.
Problem is not with text but with the interpretation.

You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?

Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified.

[easymo]

One question: Where did TT say this? Anybody have a source?

Brown University. I saw the tape on TV.

[Udie at Work]

Originally posted by fd ski


Gunthr,
I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today.

 See that's one of the reasons Jesus brought us the 'NEW COVENANT"  and belief in that is part of the key to calling yourself a Christian.  That's what troubles me when I see today's Christians talking eye for an eye.  

You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?

 To me, based on statements that you have made, it seems that you have no problem judging all of Christianity based on what some "Christian" nations did throughout history.  Even though by doing so they showed they are not true Christians and there for more likely just evil people.

Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified.

 No argument there ever heard of the saying "fear of God"  well that right there kind whipes out any form of bravery. I don't see how these guys were brave.  They were crazy or demented to do what they did.  How on God's green Earth could anybody think that killing one of his children would please him?  It seems to me maybe they were scared and figured this was the best way to paradise so they took the "quick easy way" out which is by no means brave.  The brave thing to do would be to go back to their freakin countries and try and pull them out of the middle ages.

[Gunthr]

Fd ski, LOL, you are a master of obfuscation. I don't know if you do this on purpose or not, but I'll try to respond to something that you have thouroughly mixed up and/or confused with several other's comments.

"I recommend reading of Old Testament again. It is filled with all sorts of horrible deeds which are just as bad as what we see today. - Fd ski

I never read, or claimed to have read the Old Testament. I concede that it may contain text that describes horrible deeds. I don't understand what your point might be.

"Killing in the name of God has never been exclusive to one religion, and chistianity thoughout the history has proven to be just as murderous as Islam.
Interesting study of habits of Islam conquerers in southern europe as compared to Christian ones has been published while back. They seem to have been much more tolerant to other religions ( including Jews !!! ) and far better behaved to local populace." - Fd ski

This may well be true. (I never commented on these issues at all.)

"As for quoting passages of Koran proving premissability of murderer, we can also do same with bible.
Problem is not with text but with the interpretation." - Fd ski

I absolutely agree. Certain passages have been interpreted by extremists as permitting murder of innocents. I thought my post was clear that I don't think all Islamic believers are extremists.

"You take few whackos of Bin Laden's type, who just Islam to their own ends, and use that as a standard rule to measure the whole culture.
In that case we should judge whole christian world in prizm of Pat Robertson ? It's quite idiotic, don't you think ?" - Fd ski

In my post I stated, " My personal doctor, Saleem Haq, is Islamic. I need to make it clear that I don't believe that the majority of those believers are militant extremists. Especially in our culture. Are you confusing me with someone else?

"Returning to original conversation:
If bravery is depended on what is on the other side for the "brave" person, then anyone who believes in post mortern life, is disqualified. - Fd ski

I strongly disagree.

As far as I'm concerned, the quality of bravery arises in a circumstance in which the subject feels very strong fear, but for the sake of an ideal larger than himself, resolves to persevere in the face of grave danger, death and/or other horrible personal consequence. (IMHO)

I believe that cultural brainwashing can mitigate the degree of fear that is felt, no matter what culture the subject is from. Without feeling fear, a person cannot be brave. Less fear = Less bravery in the above case.

But consider the person who believes in an afterlife, (post mortem life in your example) and who also believes that commiting suicide is a sin against God. If that person hijacks an airliner to kill innocent people and himself, believing that he is going straight to hell for eternal punishment for his act, I submit to you that he is brave.

I also believe "bravery" is a continuum. There are degrees of "bravery". I stated, "I'm not saying that fear doesn't exist in terrorists, and that the resolve to overcome that fear isn't exhibited by some of them. I'm saying its pretty simplistic to characterise terrorists as "brave."

I stand by that.

However, the semantics are not important. I still think Ted Turner is a jerk for saying what he did with total insensitivity to the survivors of 911.

[fd ski]

In my post I stated, " My personal doctor, Saleem Haq, is Islamic. I need to make it clear that I don't believe that the majority of those believers are militant extremists. Especially in our culture. Are you confusing me with someone else?

I was refering to this quote:

Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians is not encouraged here.
Further, among Christians its considered a sin to commit suicide.

Implication was that their culture encourages it

No hard feelings ?

As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?

He spoke him mind. He wasn't offensive ( as far as i'm conserned ), he just stated his opinion. He might be an amazinhunk, and i might not like him, and i might not agree with his opinion, but do we really crucify him because he has one ?

Bravery is nothing more then borderline ignorance as far as i'm conserned. It depends on personal system of values.
Let me give you an example:
In poland there was lot of awe for people who "bravely" threw themselves at the electrified wires in concentration camps, in final act of defiance.
I myself feel that bravery was facing another day in hell ( camp ), not dying on the spot.

So again, it comes to the personal level. Maybe in TT's world, what they did is brave. Whatever. Why start the PC witchhunt if ya'll dispise those so badly ?

[Udie at Work]

Originally posted by fd ski


As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?

He spoke him mind. He wasn't offensive ( as far as i'm conserned ), he just stated his opinion. He might be an amazinhunk, and i might not like him, and i might not agree with his opinion, but do we really crucify him because he has one ?

Bravery is nothing more then borderline ignorance as far as i'm conserned. It depends on personal system of values.
Let me give you an example:
In poland there was lot of awe for people who "bravely" threw themselves at the electrified wires in concentration camps, in final act of defiance.
I myself feel that bravery was facing another day in hell ( camp ), not dying on the spot.

So again, it comes to the personal level. Maybe in TT's world, what they did is brave. Whatever. Why start the PC witchhunt if ya'll dispise those so badly ?

  Wow I've read this post 3 times to try and find something to fight with Fdski about.  I can't!!!!  I think Ted's a jerk and don't agree with what he said, but he has the right to his opinion, as do all that come out against what he said.  I just hope that he doesn't get crucified for it like Bill Maar almost did.  This is still America.

[Gunthr]

LOL Fd ski,

I was refering to this quote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fd ski, no our general culture is obviously different from Islamic culture. Suicide bombing and killing innocent civilians is not encouraged here.
Further, among Christians its considered a sin to commit suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Implication was that their culture encourages it  

No hard feelings ?

I DO believe that there is a very definate sub-culture within their Islamic culture that encourages suicide bombing and the killing of innocent civilians, based on an extreme interpretation of the Koran.

We have a sub-culture like that as well, minus the Koran, but no where near as pronounced or wide spread as it is in Islam. All you need to do to see the truth of what I'm saying is to count up all the known terrorist suicide bombers and and terrorist mass murderers in our culture, and then count all the ones from the Islamic culture and compare them. Its just a fact.  No hard feelings, bud.

 Fd ski, you are a born challanger, and thats good, but you sieze upon semantics when facts wear thin. And you love to argue fine points, but you really lose the whole of the issues when you do that to the nth degree.  And its not clear at all to me why you want to find some inconsistency in what I'm saying.

"As for bravery, you mention "total insensitivity to the survivors of 911". But isn't that basically saying that he should be more politically correct ? A quality which most people on this board seem to hate with passion ?"

- Fd ski

NO. I'm concerned about how that might make those poor people feel. Their still grieving. If TT were face to face with those survivors, I don't think he would have said that the killers were brave. But maybe not. Dude isn't  known for his concern for people's feelings.

Anyway, I know the Polish people are good people who really suffered in the war... my great grandma on one side spoke only Polish, was too shy to speak English. I'm German on the other side.

[midnight Target]

Amazing!

Playing the anti PC card in reverse. fdski, I bow to your brilliance.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by midnight Target


TT's choice of words may or may not be improper. It wasn't long ago there was a thread in here arguing how BRAVE Hector was when he knew he was going to die. Were the Japanese kamakazi pilots brave? Does the fact that the WTC was not a military target change the level of bravery needed to crash a plane into it?

And Grun....We should be free to discuss these things without being ridiculed and called a liar.

That would be "attempted ridicule," but thanx just the same MT.

[Elfenwolf]

Instead of arguing over the astetics of rather the terrorists were brave or cowards you people should concern yourselves with the rapid erosion of our civil rights in the name of fighting a War on Terrorism.
Elfenwolf

[Sikboy]

Please keep me posted on what I should or shouldn't discuss

-Sikboy

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Instead of arguing over the astetics of rather the terrorists were brave or cowards you people should concern yourselves with the rapid erosion of our civil rights in the name of fighting a War on Terrorism.
Elfenwolf

Even though I tend to agree, it sounds like a good idea for another thread, EW.

[Dinger]

If any of you think the mentality of suicide bombers is far from ours, I suggest you go rent that atrocity of a movie "Battlefield Earth" -- bad as it is, it's probably better than suffering through the book.
Suicide pilots destroying huge business buildings?
Suicide runs with nukes to commit genocide on a perceived oppressor race?
Yeah, that and more: it's all in there.

Now remember that, as bad as the film is, it was produced by people who felt it was their religious obligation to do so; and this "religion" has thousands in this country.