Author Topic: Ta152 in action (Read 352 times)

MANDOBLE · « **on:** February 13, 2002, 07:22:08 AM »

For those of u thinking that a pair of Tempest were the only victims of Ta152 (piloted by W. Reschke), look for Josef Keil and Walter Loos victories in Ta152. Loos downed several Yaks and a La fighting over Berlin.

Viper17 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2002, 11:35:23 AM »

poor poor Ta152 piolits they were so young. Most were just out of the hitler youth groups. SAD SAD SAD:( But fortunitly for the more experianceed piolits they downed quite a feiw bombers.

illo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2002, 10:32:15 AM »

Hmm..i thought there were many more kills. Afaik Reschke shot 5 allied fighters in ta152 alone and he wasnt the only one.

Vermillion · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2002, 12:27:15 PM »

There were only 50 some odd production Ta152's at all (52 total I believe) and over half of those were destroyed on the ground prior to delivery to combat units or lost in air accidents (ie noncombat losses).

The largest number of Ta152's ever in service at the same time was if my memory serves me was the initial shipment of 12, and typical day to day combat strength was 7 or 8.

So it doesn't suprise me much if they didn't have alot of kills.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2002, 01:28:33 PM »

While total manufactured were about 150 Ta152, of these only
3 Ta152H, 20 Ta152H-0 and 13 152H-1 were served to operational units. Some of them were prototypes adapted as fast as possible for the defense of Berlin. Probably the 3 Ta152-E (1 and 2) prototypes were also used in reconaisance missions.

Vermillion · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2002, 05:47:14 PM »

If there were 150 total they were never assigned werk numbers. Or maybe your discussing the parts and pieces of sub-assemblies that were found in factories captured at the end of the war.

Here is a total list of all known Ta152 werk numbers for all varients (production and prototypes).

http://www.vermin.net/fw190/ta152werk1.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/ta152werk2.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/ta152werk3.jpg

There were 43 production aircraft and 28 prototypes, but not all the prototypes were completed or actually flew. And many of these aircraft were destroyed on the ground prior to delivery, or lost to accident. For instance on 16 January 1945, 14 brand new aircraft were destroyed on the ground and two heavily damaged at Cottbus while awaiting delivery.

FYI this data comes from "Focke-Wulf Ta152, The Story of the Luftwaffe's Late-War, High Altitude Fighter", by Dietmar Harmann, ISBN # 0-7643-0860-2 This book was originally published in German under the title "Focke-Wulf Ta152: Der Weg zum Hohenjager by Aviatic Verlag. Its written by German Authors working directly from German Archives and FockeWulf factory records. Its easily the most comprehensive Ta152 source I have ever seen.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2002, 07:35:30 PM »

Verm, look for werk numbers for 190A9, you will be surprised of the reliability of werk numbers at the end of the war.

Glasses · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2002, 01:24:37 AM »

Viper um, I can confirm Hitler Youth boys coming into active service to regular units of 109s and 190s but not into Ta152s like JG301. Most were not seasoned veteran fighter pilots but, they were not arrogant 16 to 19 y/os that composed most of the Luftwaffe late war recruits .

I cannot confirm though if they were former bomber pilots trained to fly fighters but it seems reasonable they were.

Vermillion · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2002, 07:29:02 AM »

Ok Mandoble,

Find me a single Ta152 without a werk number, or a Ta152 with a number thats not on that list and I'll buy your arguement. Otherwise... *cough* bullpuckey !

Your 190A9 arguement doesn't transfer over. Just because a "block" of werk numbers were assigned to a factory, and you can't find evidence of that many aircraft being produced, doesn't have anything too do with individual numbers that were assigned to aircraft. Two totally different things.

Buy the book, you'll enjoy it and it will dispell alot of the "Myths" that have arisen around the Ta152.

And don't even start the "US Anti-Luftwaffe Conspiracy" arguements because these are German authors writting from German records.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2002, 08:14:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
Find me a single Ta152 without a werk number, or a Ta152 with a number thats not on that list

AFAIK, there is only two or three surviving Ta152, so, it is extremely difficult to find that

In any case, if we look into werk numbers, they start at 150 001 and goes without "holes" till 150 040, then 250 001 to 250 003, 260 001 to 003 and 110 006 to 110 026.

There there were also 150 067 to 150 069.

From 150 022 to 150 069, most, if not all of them were into operational units, mainly JG301, that would represent 47 fighters. But there is a curious hole between 150 040 and 150 067, and a definitive comment at the 150169 "Highest known werk number supposedly captured at Leck", just where Willi Reschke 152 (159167) was captured. Also that lists have some werk numbers with the comment "No information".

As conclussion, all the werk numbers listed there, were asigned to served planes, that is, to planes out of magnufacturing plant. They are not counting all destroyed aircraft, "finished" at these plants, specially Cottbus, also, none of these werks are listed as captured plane at magnufacturing plant. IMO, the total production may have been around 100 - 150, 40 of them served to operational units.

hazed- · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2002, 03:36:03 PM »

well im not sure whether this is concrete but in Focke wulf fw190 in combat- alfred price it has lists of units equiped with fw190s on 9th of april 1945 and lists :
LUFTFLOTTE (REICH)
unit / total / serviceable
Jagdgeschwader 301
stab(operating the ta152)/ 3 / 2
I. Gruppe / 35 / 24
II. Gruppe / 32 / 15

this seems to indicate there was only 3 ta152s in the defence of germany near the wars end.I cant find any other menion on these lists of the ta152.

I then looked further and found a list of production figures for each year from 1941 for 190s and ta152s and it lists 1945 production approximately 160 for the ta152.

made me wonder where he got this figure.

Reschke · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2002, 04:50:24 PM »

Both Verm and Mandoble are right in their postings here. From what I have read and seen (I am at work for another 4-6 hours or so today 5pm here) over the last couple of years the total production of all Ta-152's including previously reworked Fw-190's (mostly the D-9 variant and some of the other prototypes late in the war) was very small. Those modified planes had different tail assemblies and wings put on them in an effort to move those planes into the Ta-152 production run. They were the same basic airframe with a longer nose due to the size of the engine as well. As a result some of the Werke Nummer's were changed to accomodate these modifications. This is why you don't have a constant stream of 150000 Werke Nummer's for the Ta-152 but they move across the Focke Wulf assigned numbers.

It is almost a given that with the Soviet Army capturing Cotbus while they were still building Ta-152's that many aircraft in stages of near completion were destroyed by artillery and close support aircraft. We also know that the bombing campaign seriously damaged the facility and slowed production along with destroying several aircraft on the ground. The complete known production run including modified Fw-190's; prototype Ta-152's; serial production Ta-152H's and pre-production Ta-152C's does equal somewhere in the 140-160 range but it will never be known for sure unless documents that Focke Wulf has or even the German government are found that indicate otherwise.

I had a thought that I have not had time to investigate. Going back to my earlier mentioning of modified Fw-190's into Ta-152's could someone check the Fw-190D-9 Werke Nummer's? I can not think of where I saw what I mentioned above but it was in a book I read within the last year. The Fw-190D-9 was supposedly only built in a quantity of around 650 airframes. However it would be interesting to see how many actually made it to combat units. This might be the real key to the number of 140-160 Ta-152's. If the number of Fw-190D-9's reaching combat is truly lower than it is supposed to be then there might be a way to cross reference the missing numbers for possible modification of the airframe into Ta-152's. Especially if those missing planes were built in Cotbus or close to it.

Wilbus · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2002, 10:13:31 AM »

Belive most D9's saw combat, the numbers I've heard was around 700 so your 650 sound good. Most of them saw service and combat with LW before the wars end.