The F4U-1C arena

[Lephturn]

Ok, many of you know I'm a fan of the Hawg.  I've flown the F4u-1D a bunch and love it.  I also think the F4U is modelled quite correctly.  In comparison to the other planes, it seems to perform as it should, in my very un-educated opinion.  I just want to make it clear I'm not claiming this bird is "over-modeled" or anything rediculous like that, and I'm not anti-allied iron by any means.  If I'm biased, it's towards the F4U, not against it.  That said...

I don't understand why the F4U-1C was unleashed on the arena.  There was what, around 200 of these saw combat?  Boy, what a can of worms.  I am amazed that Pyro, the guy that changed the WB 38J-25LO to the 38J-15? (The one with no power-assisted roll) for (I believe) play balance reasons, has unleashed in the AH arena a monster that has significantly changed the arena play balance, and for the worse.

I used to be one of the few that flew the Hawg, and could make it work.  I enjoyed that.  Ok, sure, I had to spend more time climbing to altitude, and NEEDED an altitude advantage, but I could make it work OK.  It WAS an energy fighter, and the 6x50's didn't produce for HO's or snapshots, so you had to be a good E fighter to get kills in it.  Now there are HUGE numbers of F4U-1C's flying around, everybody doing the BnZ, and everybody enters the fight at 25-30k!  This sucks.  I don't want to spend 20 mintues climbing and heading to the target area every damn flight.  I don't want to be unable to go furballin' in a N1k because of the certainty that 20 sky-high Cannon-Hawgs are gonna sweep through and kill everything with HO's and snap-shots.  Now we just need a Spit XIV, a TA-152, and a couple more "uber" planes and we can open an "uber arena".  In the MA though, I don't think the 1C or ANY of these planes that saw very little combat should be included.  Even something that DID see a bunch of combat should be restricted from an open main arena if it will significantly affect the play balance IMHO.

Basically, I think the arena sucks right now because of the introduction of this plane.  Gone is the variety of planes and fighting styles I saw before this version.  Gone is the pride I once felt when flying Big Blue.  Gone is the fun... for me.  Sure, other new planes have been flown a bunch when first introduced, but I have never seen such a huge impact on play balance as the F4U-1C has had.

Who knows, maybe with time this will pass.  Right now however, it's not fun, and I won't be flying much until the arena changes.  I certainly won't be paying for it until it does.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[Pongo]

 I see alot of them. And they do change the gunfire solution alot. But they are just as easy to shoot down as other planes...
They are lousey for base defense (as was pounded into me by pyro and co last night)
and lots of dweebs are flying them...
Ways that they have changed the game..
Shoved the B26 off of its pedastal..
Unescorted buffs are in trouble again..
every ones "6" extends back another 300 yards.
A good vulcher has got ammo for 15 kills

All of this is a capability of the guns not neccasarily the plane.
The typhoon will have the same package.
A 4 cannon spit would have less ammo but the same hit..
If they balance the plane it will have to be in its FM. The guns are the same as the spit.


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Pongo

[Ripsnort]

I believe that the 'Alt-Monkey' syndrome is normal behavior for flying a plane that is a new airframe to the individual...expect it to go away after everyone checks out their new rides.  I, for one, flew the F4U very high until I got comfortable with it.  

If there is a complaint of altitude, I would blame that on the 109's, since I have seen more 109's at 20K+ than any other A/C lately.

I have talked to alot of people about  F4U lately and most I talk to feel the same way about the F4U as I do, it doesn't have it's diving ability as  it should.  I believe this is the same A/C as the orig. F4U with addition of only cannon.  A co-alt Spit can catch me in a dive, a Co-alt 109 caught me in a dive last night, that seems to me to be incorrect, but then again, the only books I've read have been with F4U vs. Japanese A/C, so, I *may* be wrong.

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
+JG2+ ~Richthofen~
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[dolomite]

Lephturn-

"This too shall pass."

There is always going to be a plane that everyone wants.

Remember 2 weeks ago? You couldn't throw a rock without hitting a P51. It was the same thing (though with reduced punch).

When the 109's came out last week, they were everywhere.

B26's? No vultched field is now complete without the low B26's trolling back-and-forth.

In short, it's new, and everyone wants to try it out. I took one up last night. I like it ok, but it is in no way my favorite ride (still prefer the c205, Nikki, and 109's). Still, some people will find it fits their flying style or mission, and it will be used. Be patient, the bulk of the pilots will grow weary of being caught in bad situations over and over. Just as you described, an F4U caught lower is in big trouble from any a/c that can come anywhere near matching its speed.

[AKDejaVu]

The first time I flew the F4u-1C, everything pulled away from me in a dive.  Mustang, N1k(hard to believe eh?), c.205 (lets talk overmodeled) and a Spit IX.  The thing is... none of them pulled away fast enough

4 Kills on first sortie.  All of them stemmed from people being used to not worrying about the f4u on their 6 until he got close... knowing it wouldn't be that hard to lose.  Welcome to the new arena where you actually have to view most every plane with equal respect.

AKDejaVu

[Lephturn]

I hope it does pass, but even still I don't think it's a good move to include such a little-used variant.  Oh well.  Sure, other planes get flown alot early, but none are anywhere near as formidable as the 1C is right now.  Check the scoring page: "The f4u1c has 1969 kills and has been killed 991 times."  Find me any other plane that did that when introduced.  Yeah, lots of dweebs and pilots unfamiliar with it are flying it... and they are STILL kicking big time ass.  That hasn't happened with any other plane that I'm aware of, in AH or WB in the past.

I want to address some of the FM issues others have raised in this thread.  I stated at the start that I think the F4U is modelled well, and I still hold that opinion.

A few have mentioned "A spit caught me in a dive, a 109 caught me in a dive" etc.  Well guess what, they should.  Yeah, that's right, I said they should.  These planes are quick accellerators and good climbers, and that means they are also great diving planes.  From a co-E situation you better have a pile of separation because those bad-boys are gonna gain on you... until you hit 400 MPH or so.  Once you get to high speed and accelleration is less of a factor, the Hawg really shines.  I can't tell you how many times I've suckedered Spits into augering because I got them all hot and bothered "catching" me in a dive and lured them well past their highest controlleable speed.

Even in a co-E situation.. you trim the Hawg properly and do a zero G diving extension and you WILL leave all but a Pony or a 190 in the dust.  Just remember that in the short-term, the quick-accellerating planes are gonna gain on you big time.

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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[HaHa]

c.205 is not overmodelled.. it is fine the way it is!

I really have found f4u's to be lousy dogfighters.. not once in my c.205 did I lose against an f4u.

[Swager]

How many of the 1969 kill by the F4U-1C were vulch kills?  This plane is a vulch guru.  Being vulched the other night, 8 of 12 planes that were vulching were the F4U-1C. With the massive firepower they were racking up some major kills.

It will pass.  I hope it dosen't, because many times this plane is being used in a way which allows me to blow it out of the sky!!  

Used the correct way this plane is a complete menace! But as with any plane, there are ways to counter-act it's great capabilities.  

The only time I do not care to see a F4U is when it is above me! Then I keep a good eye on it.  Trust me there will be some master pilots in this bird. The fad of flying one will fade, with a few exceptions.

 

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Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!

[Totengraber]

Lephturn wrote:
"flying around, everybody doing the BnZ, and everybody enters the fight at 25-30k! This sucks."
It's very usual to some ex-AW3 players, like me, start to fly at 20k or 25k. I just remember my first flight in AW, I was flying at 20k whit the Me-109k when I was shoot down by a La5 flying at 25k. The F4u-1D is not linked whit high altitude fights.
She is good but if she meets a Spit-9/Me-109G10 at 25k co-altitude and speed, the F4u-1D is dead!
Well, wait until P-38 arrives, she's fantastic at 25/30k!

Yours,
Totengräber

[spinny]

"The only time I do not care to see a F4U is when it is above me! Then I keep a good eye on it."

One possible result of its introduction might be to force more fights to historical altitudes, rather than at the weed-cutting level that seems to predominate.

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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X

[Animal]

I used to mainly fly the 190. I love firepower. I have been flying the F4U-C lately because of firepower. But suddenly, ive fallen in love with the plane. It handles awesome with low fuel, it handles great at high alt.
Ive been selecting the D model half the time I fly it. Why? because I want to train my gunnery before I have to pay for the game, and hitting my targets more in order to shoot them down helps my gunnery skill.
The ONLY plane in the arena I used to fly was the 190 (and the 109 before the 190 came)
I am still waiting for the P-38, as it is the ONLY allied plane I have ever loved back from the WB days, because its a beautiful bird IMO, and I love the way it handles at high alt.
As for the F4U: call me a dweeb, call me anything, but sorry, you will have to get used to see me flying it for the rest of my AH days.
For I have fallen in love with the Hawg.

P.S: I am loving the plane so much, that I ordered some $90 rudders because I love the cool maneuvers you can pull out in the Hawg with them.
I am taking my time to learn this plane.


[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 01-26-2000).]

[TT]

 I agree with every thing you have said Leph. In an effort to get more planes out, HTC seems to chuck game balance out the window. I would prefer that they hang on to a new plane. Until it can be relesed with a counterpart. Had they released a late model KI with the 1C it might have been less of a drag.

 BTW. Those of you that are so happy about the long boreing climb to 30k, remember you wont get your kills in this game, if you get popped befor the other guy takes the long ride down.

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Animal]

By the way Leph, can you please hook me up with any gunsight that works good for the Hawg? thanks..

[Gator]

I don't understand why the F4U-1C was unleashed on the arena. There was what, around 200 of these saw combat?

I'm surprised as well ... don't even have a P-38 yet.

In the MA though, I don't think the 1C or ANY of these planes that saw very little combat should be included.

FWIW, I agree, especially since there are not any "historical" events running.  I much prefer to keep getting shot down by planes that had historical impact.  

... I won't be flying much until the arena changes. I certainly won't be paying for it until it does.

In a similar vein, I have decided that AH would be worth my money when there are "historical" events to lure me away from the other sims.  I'm still hopeful that HTC will announce a "historical" event schedule before the end of my two-week trial, since I like the overall sim more, just don't prefer the AH main arena over Warbirds' "historical activities" (looking forward to tonight's "Guadalcanal Riposte").  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
I believe that the 'Alt-Monkey' syndrome is normal behavior for flying a plane that is a new airframe to the individual...expect it to go away after everyone checks out their new rides.  I, for one, flew the F4U very high until I got comfortable with it.  

If there is a complaint of altitude, I would blame that on the 109's, since I have seen more 109's at 20K+ than any other A/C lately.

I have talked to alot of people about  F4U lately and most I talk to feel the same way about the F4U as I do, it doesn't have it's diving ability as  it should.  I believe this is the same A/C as the orig. F4U with addition of only cannon.  A co-alt Spit can catch me in a dive, a Co-alt 109 caught me in a dive last night, that seems to me to be incorrect, but then again, the only books I've read have been with F4U vs. Japanese A/C, so, I *may* be wrong.

Cough.. I can't even think about flying 109 higher than max. 25k, its simply just a pain to fly high in 109

Why don't we just get a compromise for this.. lets add a bunch of early war planes and do another arena for those  
Those planes with max. only one cannon or 4 .50cal  

Btw lephturn, those 6 .50s arent that weak as you think, maybe you should consider how far you shoot next time and train up your gunnery?  
At least I think those 6 .50s are great shots..