11 old boy kills robber with a .45

[Animal]

SirLoin,
Get ready to get flamed.


Guns are VERY, VERY hard to get legally in Puerto Rico. You need toejamloads of paperwork, and they will investigate your past and present before you can buy a 9mm.

The crime rate here is fairly high still, the criminals all have handguns, and of course, none of them got them in Walmart.

I do believe that when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will carry them. This place is a perfect example.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by SirLoin


My point being that concealable pistols give the advantage to perps...I see no purpose in them so ban them!!!

At the risk of going off-topic with Animals thread, do you think the law-abiding black market will also follow with the ban? Just think...a world where a criminal would be forced to use brute force or a knife to rob you since he has no access to firearms on the black market....ahhh!  Never mind, I just woke up.

[SirLoin]

Animal,I am only referring to handguns...I see no purpose for them except for concealable killing of another person...If they are treated as such(attempted murder charge for concealing one in a crime) then perhaps a hard line stance on them would be a deterrent...And nobody has ever taken a hard line stance on handguns..."It is time!!!" says the monkey to himself when he learns Simba is alive(The Lion King)..

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Animal
SirLoin,
Get ready to get flamed.


Guns are VERY, VERY hard to get legally in Puerto Rico. You need toejamloads of paperwork, and they will investigate your past and present before you can buy a 9mm.

The crime rate here is fairly high still, the criminals all have handguns, and of course, none of them got them in Walmart.

I do believe that when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will carry them. This place is a perfect example.

Bingo.

[Sox62]

Originally posted by SirLoin
Animal,I am only referring to handguns...I see no purpose for them except for concealable killing of another person...

Yeah...ban them!!I'm sure all criminals would never break the law,and carry them anyways.


 Proud owner of a Beretta FS92.

[SirLoin]

Oops..I ranted and hijacked Animal's thread..Sorry bro..

[Nashwan]

Well, America has probably the loosest gun laws in the western world, and just about the highest murder rate.

Criminals in most western countries don't carry guns very often, and use them less often.

Whilst the murder rate is far higher in the US, about 6 times that of Britain's, the most telling figure is the number of murders committed during robberies of all sorts in the UK.
In 1998, it stood at 38. For all robberies, muggings, car-jackings etc combined.

Five men were convicted today for trying to steal 200 million pounds worth of diamonds in the UK.
It involved a raid on the Millenium dome, a tourist attraction, in broad daylight, using a mechanical digger, speedboat, bullet proof vests, smoke grenades, ammonian sprays, and no guns.

[JV44]

...that will be an endless discussion....

...anyway, in Germany all guns are banned, you need license to buy and this license is even you have no criminal records hart to get... only air or CO2 weapons cal. 4.5mm are free to buy with 18 years....

BUT....

you only know some poeple in a bad town area and pay 2.000 US$ and

POFF

three days later you can get your AK-47

so it is something true that if you really want a gun you get one, even in germany....


Andreas

[capt. apathy]

Statistics show you are more likely to be shot by your own handgun than you are likely to shoot an intruder breaking into your home.

Which is why rips dad (and mine) taught to empty the magazine.
1. You may not have actually hit him the first round (his reaction could have been from surprise)
2. He may recover somewhat and continue to attack after.
3. If he does get your gun it's empty.
4. On a more cynical note, a wounded intruder gets to make up some B.S. story and probably sue you for his injurys, dead intruder= they only hear your story.

But the kid showed good judgment in breaking the rules since the guy was holding mom

[streakeagle]

Hmmm... not even looking up statistics, I am willing to bet the United Kingdom's deaths by violence (murder/terrorism... anything imaginable) per capita is higher than the United States. We don't have the IRA operating here and I do belive Northern Ireland counts as part of the UK, but even if you don't count them, I suspect the stats per capita aren't 6 to 1 against the US. If you limit the deaths to kills by guns and leave out Ireland, I would believe 6 to 1.

Anybody know where to get accurate, qualified statistics (as opposed to carefully massaged numbers)?

[Toad]

Nashwan,

What's the latest on violent crime and crime involving firearms in Britain since the ban on guns?

If I'm not mistaken, in the last 12 months there has been a sharp increase?


Gun Crime Rise in London


12/21/2001

 
"A report from Scotland Yard shows that gun crime in London, England, has increased by nearly 90 percent, This is London reported Dec. 19.

According to the report, gun murders in London increased by 87 percent in the first eight months of 2001 compared with the same period last year. In addition, armed robberies increased 53 percent, from 435 during the first eight months of 2000 to 667 this year.

Officials attributed the increase to organized crime and drug trafficking. Commander Alan Brown, head of the Operation Trident taskforce against "black on black" gun crime, said the increase in gun crime was "an extremely worrying development."

"The level of violence is increasing, there is no doubt about that," he said. "We have seen shootings in the West End. This is not just happening in Hackney or Brent, this is a problem for all of London."  "


Is this all incorrect? Do you have any other info?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Well, America has probably the loosest gun laws in the western world, and just about the highest murder rate.

Criminals in most western countries don't carry guns very often, and use them less often.

Whilst the murder rate is far higher in the US, about 6 times that of Britain's, the most telling figure is the number of murders committed during robberies of all sorts in the UK.
In 1998, it stood at 38. For all robberies, muggings, car-jackings etc combined.

Five men were convicted today for trying to steal 200 million pounds worth of diamonds in the UK.
It involved a raid on the Millenium dome, a tourist attraction, in broad daylight, using a mechanical digger, speedboat, bullet proof vests, smoke grenades, ammonian sprays, and no guns.

Rebuttal:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=119358

[-dead-]

I do believe that when you outlaw guns, only outlaws will carry them.

Duh! They're outlaws by definition!
[And using the same logic: if you legalised everything, there wouldn't be any crime at all.]

As to stats (culled from www.smallarmssurvey.org):

According to that lot Gun deaths only, UK without North Ireland, is 0.2 to 6 in the US or 1 to 30. Figures are a bit old, though, so maybe UK gun deaths have risen 500% since then.

 

Here's murders:



IIRC, Gun deaths in the England & Wales (NB - this misses out Scotland & N. Ireland) were 62 in 1998 (Govt figures), an alarming rise from 49 the year before. In the US the number was 30,708 (Source: National Vital Statistics Reports, Vol. 48, No. 11).

As an interesting comparison:
There were 19,515 Alcohol-induced deaths in the US each year, not including motor vehicle fatalities (1998)
There were 25,192 deaths in the US from Chronic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis (1998)
[Chronic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis is the 10th leading cause of death in the US (1998)]
AIDS/HIV Deaths Annually: 13,426 (1998)
There were 16,926 Deaths From Drug-Induced Causes in 1998 (legal and illegal drugs)
Source: National Vital Statistics Reports, Vol. 48, No. 11

[midnight Target]

From the DOJ
                       Average annual number
                       of victimizations in which
                       firearms were stolen        
Crime in which         _____________________________ _______
firearm was stolen     Total       Handgun       Other gun
                       _____________________________ _______

    Total              340,700     180,500       160,200

Violent crime          7,900       5,300           2,600
Personal theft         56,200      33,900          22,300
Household theft        52,600     31,700          20,900
Household burglary    217,200    105,300         112,000
Motor vehicle theft     6,700      4,400           2,400

Live and learn. I was looking for evidence that would show that handguns are more apt to be stolen, and used by criminals. Looks to be about even though.

I think where we really need to crack down is on the manufacturers of these "Saturday Night Specials". What good are these weapons except for popping a liquor store?

[streakeagle]

Notice that they compared it to New York of the 1980s. In general, violent crime rates have been dropping in the United States. They dropped even faster in states like my own that legalized concealed carry.

Guns are not the source of deaths: criminals, deliquents, and stupid/irresponsible people are the cause of the problem. Banning guns at best only stops the stupid/irresponsible people and slows down the criminals and deliquents.