Author Topic: simple questions... (Read 1280 times)

hazed- · « **on:** February 18, 2002, 07:39:43 AM »

why is the mosquito, historically a very durable aircraft, so weak in AH?

why is the P38, historically vulnerable to tail hits, now built like a tank in AH?

I was all for toughening the p38 a little after flying with the glass tail but sheesh dont you think its overdone? At the VERY least, it certainly should not be tougher now than the mossie.

Im going out on a limb here but i gotta say I think this is one area where AH has NO BEARING on what you see and read in history books.

Ive seen film of hits on B17s where the damn thing seems to take an unreal amount of hits.the gunners are obviously dead but the thing just kept flying.Why in AH dont we see more of our shots killing gunners?they had no armour around them, shouldnt they be susceptable to damage long before the structure gives out?
Ive read stories of the p38 having the tendancy to lose its tail when hit by even small caliber fire and although AH at first seemed to model it, I agreed it felt a bit too glasslike for the overall enjoyment of the game, and needed a bit of a boost but now the tail is as tough as any plane in AH.
The P51, Notorious for its vulnerability(exposed radiator) to ground fire is also a tank in AH. I have survived more AA hits in a p51d than i EVER have in a 190F8 (supposedly a specialised toughened 190 ground pounder).Have none of you heard the stories from korea where even the pilots said a farmer can down a p51 with a rifle bullet? see that happening in AH? why? because we havent got farmers modeled

The 190f8, supposedly able to take more damage than the other 190 models due to increased armour around engine and guns and pilot.Do you notice the difference in AH?
etc etc

Now Im not saying its rigged but hell it sure feels like it. SO if HTC would id like them to explain the damage model a bit.Could we have a graph showing the most durable, down to least durable in AH? and could we know how it was decided?

You see i see certain 'quirks' of planes modeled, ie the zero feels like it has exploding fuel tanks which you read about. The P47 is REALLY tough in AH JUST as it was known to be in real life.the 109 undercarriage is narrow and weak and seems to be in AH too
but other characteristics are totally contrary to what you read about the aircraft.

so how about it HTC? a list of toughest to weakest with a note as to why? or maybe if you feel this is an unfair request maybe a tough/medium/weak grouping with little detail?

Im just fed up trying to match what i read to what i see in AH.With the usual mob of 'knowalls' telling me that what i read is nonsense or it doesnt match data from tests etc.well unless im mistaken they didnt 'test' shooting at these planes, it was pilots recollection which gave them knowledge in real fights.
So with this in mind why not use the pilot stories and other records (ie german official crash investigators counted hits on downed bombers and said on average 25-30 20mm hits brought down a bomber) to judge and set the damage levels so they match up to the stories we can read in the history books?

If this is ignored then well, im sorry, but I'll no longer consider AH a sim with accuracy in mind, rather just one companys idea of what they think is good for business.The way things seem to be going any USAAF plane seems to be made of titanium (with the exception of the f6f, thats F&*(_& KEVLAR!

)

ok finished......

minus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2002, 11:23:26 AM »

all the whiners about whine and other ,,HTC guild members ,, CM stuff WILL EAT U ALIVE HAZED !

Replicant · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2002, 11:34:46 AM »

I was disappointed by the fragileness of the Mosquito...

As for the B17, I got a piccy somewhere of a B17 with a 109 imbedded in it's fuselage, just ahead of the vstab! It just made it home - crashed on approach I think. I'll have to hunt for the piccy!

Regards

Nexx

Jester · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2002, 11:51:48 AM »

The FM on the P-38 does seem a bit much. I knocked an engine out on a 38 with 20mm strikes and he still out ran my KI-61 on one engine!

Genearlly the tail was the weak spot on the 38 but it doesn't seem to be modled that way here in AH. In WB's that was were you aimed when trying to shoot down a 38 from the rear quarter.

fdiron · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2002, 12:48:55 PM »

replicant, you will be happy to know that the b17 which you are talking about landed safely. The tail severed from the aircraft after it was already on the ground. While I have seen B17s take massive damage and make it home, I have also seen B17s with no apparent damage crash. Anyone seen the 1943 movie "Memphis belle". Why in the world is that B17 spinning in (The one where you see a crewman bail out of the bombay)? It has no visible damage.

Hooligan · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2002, 12:49:45 PM »

Hazed I assume you have performed some sort of objective tests on the various AH aircraft (how many 20mm hits does it on average take to down a Mustang and a Mosquito?). Also presumably you have archival documents which show data detailing how the planes in question should behave, how much damage they absorb etc...

Unfortunately you seem to have left the important parts of your post out (i.e. the data and analysis). It’s almost as if a 50 page analysis were presented but only the paragraph with conclusions was actually included without the data upon which those conclusions were based. The conclusions you do present seem to be lacking somewhat in structure and logic. Frankly they seem emotion-laden, petulant and whiney.

I'm sure this is just an oversight and I am looking forward to you presenting the missing data and analysis that will provide HTC with the information they need to make the requisite improvements.

Hooligan

Karnak · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2002, 12:50:41 PM »

Things that match what I have read:

The Ju88 seems about as tough as I have read it was. I have taken an ungodly pounding in that thing and stayed in the air at times.

Mustang wings pop off quite readily if you get ham handed at high speed.

Lancaster tail gunners die quickly. It is very rare for me to have a Lanc's tail gunner live long enough to exhaust the small amount of ammo he has.

The Bf109 has a horribly cramped cockpit that give very little room to adjust your view position. Even Spitfire pilots commented on how roomy their normal ride was compared to the 109.

Hellcats are tough mofos.

Zero's catch fire very, very readily.

....And many other things.

Things that stand out as odd to me:

The Mossie does seem quite fragile to me. I would in fact put it in the "most fragile" category along with things like the C-47 and Spitfire. The stuff I have read frequently mentioned the Mosquito's durability and ability to absorb more damage than other aircraft its size.

The Zero seems a bit too structurally sound to me, being tougher than the Spitfire.

The Spitfire seems a bit too weak structurally. I have never read anything that indicated the Spit was considered a particularly fragile aircraft, just as I have never read that it was considered a durable aircraft.

Spitfires and Mustangs doing ground attack work should suck bullets into their oil/cooling systems like the Typhoon does.

The B-17G and Lancaster both seem excessively fragile compared to their war record. They also seem to be deadlier to fighters.

La-7s seem shockingly durable. I have noticed this on both ends, recieving and giving.

Viper17 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2002, 01:30:16 PM »

in my studys i have come accros thet the spit had a VERY fragile under carrage and with tha mossie being made of wood it would go up in smoke if it ever caught fire. As for tha A6M the one we have has more armor than the later ones still it only has the armor directly behind the piolits head. The Typhoon Tempest had a little more radiator protection because of the prop spin. The Mustangs would suck spent caseings in there radiators regularly. that being one of there main desing flaws. Yes the mossie was very structraly sound, but try takeing out a sheet of plywood and shoot your gun at it, thats what it was like. That is why when you look at pasific AC you see that they had covers over there radiators to keep bugs and leafs out.

Nefarious · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2002, 01:30:57 PM »

I dont think the zero is tougher than the spit, granted I DO NOT FLY SPITFIRES. I have had many engagements against Spitfires in my trusty Zeke. The 20mm has a devastating effect against the Spit. But If my shooting is off, or the pilot is a good stick, I can easily expend a good deal of my 20mm ammo. The Zeke's combo MG's can be hazardous to any aircraft. But it doesnt take very long in a low and slow turning fight to be on the recieving end of any enemy aircraft. Ive found one succesful burst onto the Zero and it loses critical parts to remain flying or usually goes up like a book of matches. But there has been many times where I get ignited, only to fight for and sometimes kill for a few minutes, while on fire.

I think the zeke has a reasonable Damage Model as does the Spit.

Viper17 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2002, 01:34:19 PM »

Zeek = No armor, no self sealing fuel tanks, so light that it cant turn right in a dive, Pulss as you sead it goes up like a book of matches.

hazed- · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2002, 07:05:07 PM »

hooligan

objective tests? lol im not about to spend 8 hours sitting various planes on runways firing various guns from various angles..well i hope you get the picture....
What i can do is give my overall feeling of the various models.I have flown and been shot by all the fighters in different combinations.Im trying to just understand how the DM works before i decide its off or correct.

great models that feel right-P47-ju88-b26,lancaster,zero(yes i meant it was right earlier,just an example!)-spitfire-typhoon-205-109s-arado-TBM-

models that dont feel right- p51d(p51b I've not seen/flown enough to really get a feel for its durability,but assume its the same as p51d)-mossie(feels very weak but im going on misleading info i guess,could be like you said ,tough airframe but susceptable to cannon fire?)-B17(doesnt feel robust enough,guns still seem very deadly even for high speed weaving attacks which are hard/boring to set up!

)-190f8(not sure on this one but shouldnt it feel a tad tougher than other 190s with its extra armour? otherwise why model it? why not put 4x50kg on a8?)-General effects of all bombs seems a little muted and weak.

There are others of course but you get the general idea.Id just like to know what 'makes' the model behave the way they do? is it a simple matter of adding the figure for armour thickness for each model into the overall game engine? or is it a penetration/velocity/angle/armour/position calculation? Ive heard of the 'hit bubble', is that the same method used for AH?
Am i reading too much complexity into it or too little?

This is the problem.You say my view is an emotional one(i believe you used whine as per fu**in usual:mad: ) but how can anyone be expected to have an objective view of what they see without the knowledge of what goes on in the code or model?
Do you know how the calculations for hits on various planes armour work?
If any HTC member would just give us an idea of what is done to adjust the toughness maybe we can really help refine it to a level we all think or feel is about right.I know this sounds like a call for adjusted realism to suit individuals whims but really it isnt.I think if you asked those that like to fly bombers if they would mind having more durability and (very slighty) less lethality they would like it and so would those having to face the terror of 30k.The P38 im sorry but to me it seems to take a hell of a lot more to kill (admitedly imo but id like to see how many agree)-the Mossie as has been said could possibly be quite weak against cannon so could be correct.I will do my damndest to find material on mosquito airial damage though

.Everything i have read points to it being able to withstand lots of damage.Mentions of the same durability enjoyed by the hurricanes wooden structure are commonplace.

ok enough for now..

Animal · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2002, 07:15:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Andijg
The FM on the P-38 does seem a bit much. I knocked an engine out on a 38 with 20mm strikes and he still out ran my KI-61 on one engine!

Wow... you suck!

mrsid2 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2002, 07:40:56 PM »

Hazed, you made some good observations. Many of which I've been wondering myself also.

Of course the buff thing is clear already - gameplay concession.

I'd enjoy buff killing far more if I could work the gunners dead and then pound the sucker good, seeing it fall slowly to pieces opposed to 1 pass cannon hit to wingtip kill (if the gunner sucked and didn't catch you on the way down..)

Wilbus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2002, 07:52:57 PM »

I think AH's DM might be a bit F***** up when it comes to most things. What was asked for for the P38 (rightfully asked for) was to strengthen the tail, not only did HTC strenghten the tail but the whole plane and unless ya put 5x20mm in the very tip of a wing you can keep shooting 20mm at that freaking thing for ever, not to say that it can handle more then 1x30mm in the wing (30mm are known to even have killed B17's with a single hit).

F6F's and LA7's same thing.

Tac · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2002, 08:14:58 PM »

The only thing I see wrong in the 38's DM now is that the wings take too much damage. Wings as in wing ROOTS.

But the rest of the DM seems to be a-ok to me. Every time I get hit by some doofus spraying 50 cal and 20mm I lose entire parts, mainly engines and elevator and rudders and in MANY occasions the big 'ole stabilizer and wingtips. I shoot down P-38 now in the same manner I shoot a 109 or P-51.. with a concentrated burst of hits, not like before where 1 or 2 pings ANYWHERE in the plane would kill both engines, snap the stabilizer, snap the tail or blow a wing off.

The tails ARE vulnerable. Go ahead and shoot at a 38 from below or from the top and hit the tails, they'll snap out. Hit it from behind and chances are you're not hitting the tails but the stab and wing-fuselage.

One thing most people dont realize is that the 38 has TWO of everything. Shoot 1 engine? Hey, there's another one. And the 38 can keep 300mph with 1 engine.. put it on a dive and it still dives quite good. Shoot 1 of the vert. stabs? No prob, the other one is there. Shoot 1 tail? You'd better damn be hitting it with a 30mm shell and BLOW it off, 'cause IRL the other tail held the plane in place till the pilot did a high-g manouver and did the snapping for the enemy plane. Wish this could be modeled, but its not.

Just right now lazerr, Kappa, MrWulf and I got bounced in Mindanao W of 32 by a flight of 152's (wilbuz? that u guys?). Lazer and I got hit by a close quarter, high speed snapshot.. and verily enough, both of us got bad damage on the plane. I had lost 1 engine, 1 elevator, pilot wounded and both my rudders. Even then I dived below the clouds and managed to RTB and land. Lazerr crashed on the landing because of the damage. If those 152's had jumped a P-51, Spit or any other plane it wouldve been dead instantly.

In almost all cases of damage to a 38, the 38 ends up dead. if one elev is lost the 38 cant turn for crap. if it loses 1 flap its f*cked in low speed combat (and gee, high speeds of 450max before compression means it can only run away from a zeke and hurricanes!). Loses 1 engine and 38's only chance is to dive and hope he aint followed, 'cause if he turns he'll be limited to 300mph..or 200mph if turns start.

Moving away from the 38, the mossie does eat a lot of hits, far more than a 38 when I fly it.

Id like to know how it is that an M3 and M16 can take more than 10 shots of .50 cal and have their gunners survive. And how the Pzr and M8 AP rounds dont kill a flaktank with the first shot.. or how the Pzr's get their turrets blown off by 50 cal planes... or how the PZR 7.9mm mg gives INSTANT pilot wound to any plane it hits, no matter WHERE its hitting the plane...

and why the heck can you strafe a B17/B26 with 100 rnds of 50 cal in a long arc from nose to tail and have all its gunners live? I dont care if the buff doesnt go down, but a B17/B26 had NO armour for the gunners.. them gunners should be confetti with a short burst.