Still not enough... IMO.

[Toad]

One of my more famous sayings is:

The ONLY thing WORSE than having a Union is..... NOT HAVING a Union.

What can I say... I guess I'm not as easily pigeonholed as some would like me to be. I sure don't sound like the dyed-in-the-fine-wool-broadcloth Republican a lot of folks make me out to be, do I?

Bottom line is I think MOST folks in the US are pretty underpaid given the contribution they make to our society. Examples are rampant... you don't need to look very far. Cops spring to mind.. TEACHERS really jump out at ya.. the military.... it's easy to see, IMO.

It would be a tough trick though. You'd have to keep inflation in reasonable check while increasing wages, match suppy to demand.. and the REAL hard part.. get folks to accept that their STILL would be a hierarchy of jobs. (oops... lost my "commie card" there, didn't I?)  

[Dowding]

Easy with those dangerous, commie, left-wing nazi ideas, Toad.

Grunherz is never very far away.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Toad
Why were those jobs outsourced again? So the corporation could make more money right? More profit?

When Boeing outsourced did the price of aircraft go down? No, it did not. Boeing just raked in the profit and the bosses all took nice bonuses, didn't they? Stockholders got just enough to keep them quiet.

 When you shop for groceries, have you ever paid more then was asked from you? Do you ever chose to buy the same product in the store where it costs more? If you happen to pay for something less then you think it should cost, do you immediately request a pay cut from your boss?

 When I buy labor (as a shareholder/co-owner) of a company, why would I pay more then necessary?

When Chevy started building Suburbans in Mexico, did Suburbans get cheaper? Ah.. Nope.
 Nope, american shareholders just made more money from which they payed taxes and put the rest into the ecomony in the form of investments and purchases.

Where's this benefit we consumers are continually promised? Oh, THAT'S RIGHT.. if we didn't outsource the corporations would screw us to an even GREATER degree for the things they want to sell us. Anyone here think a Suburban is REMOTELY worth $45,000? It's said GM makes in excess of $8000 on each Suburban.. not the dealer, GM. The Dealer is getting his cut on top of that.
 Have you seen how much the same cars cost in the regulated markets? Name me one country on earth where you can buy the same car cheaper then in US? Japanes models cost more in Japain then here.

Which came FIRST.... bad management or unions?
 Badly managed companies go out of business. Unionised companies go out of business. Same crap.
 In free economy you can't run successfull business based on either incompetence or blackmail.

miko

[Toad]

Originally posted by miko2d
When I buy labor (as a shareholder/co-owner) of a company, why would I pay more then necessary?

To maintain the consumer economy in the market that drives the world economy maybe?

Because without a healthy US market for your goods it won't matter what you are buying labor for somewhere else?

Nope, american shareholders just made more money from which they payed taxes and put the rest into the ecomony in the form of investments and purchases.

Yeah, sometimes that happens. Sometimes you get Enron and all the rest of what's bad in corporate America. Seems like that is cyclical too.. .lately (since the '90's) the cycle seems to be more "Enron" than usual.

Have you seen how much the same cars cost in the regulated markets? Name me one country on earth where you can buy the same car cheaper then in US? Japanes models cost more in Japain then here.

Are we getting into the "dumping" discussion here? Take a look at Union wages for foreign workers making the better known German and Japanese marques. With benefits, I believe they are higher than US wages by a significant amount. Yet those cars cost less here than they do in their home countries, as you say.  HMMM.. so what's that "dumping" thing again? Are you going to lay that at the feet of the Unions?

In free economy you can't run successfull business based on either incompetence or blackmail.

miko

Sure you can. You just can't do it forever. USAir/Wolf?  Enron/Skilling-Lay? Texas Air/Lorenzo?

You are basically correct however. There must be balance. The "balance" between the overwhelming power of management (think New York sweatshops and child labor at the turn of the century) and the employee is... the Union.

However, as I previously mentioned, the only thing worse than having a Union is NOT having a Union.

[Eagler]

Union = MOB

$$$ for organized crime

it ain't the turn of the century and you don't have children in sweat shops

they are a thing of the past, pricing the US right out of the world market

[Toad]

Is stupid, oppressive or criminal management a thing of the past?

Nope.

Until then, you're going to have unions, like it or not.

[fd ski]

Toad....
workers of all contries UNITE !!!

[Eagler]

How would/did the Unions help Joe Sixpack working at Enron?

I think they still got the shaft. Dunno how a Union protects an employee from corrupt/stupid management. They are in it for the money. Their money - dues. And the power they hold over corp America, that is until the chase everything offshore & overseas.

[Dinger]

$75k is a good salary, sure.  But most of the united mechanics will not be paid $75k.  That is the most they can ever hope to make.
Management can be good or bad, but being concerned about its employees is a luxury few of them have.
In the eyes of management, employees are an asset like any other that needs to be maximized.  Why pay for two skilled workers to work 8 hours a day when you can pay one skilled worker for 16?  Heck, if the whole industry does it, all management wins out twice: not only do they pay one worker instead of two, but with half as many jobs, you can pay less and demand more.
You don't want to work overtime? Fine, we'll just hire somebody more desperate for the job.
True it's not turn-of-the-century sweatshops,a t least in this country.  Want to guess how that changed?  The Pinkerton Cops lobbied congress?


Sure unions do some good things.  5 years back, my job got unionized.  Before then, we didn't have health care; I knew a coworker who one day went to the clinic for a headache, and was given four hours to collect her belongings and report to surgery.  She survived, but lost everything she owned to that brain tumor.  Now we get taken care of, and last year when I had a genetically precipitated cancer, I got it removed with no hassle whatsoever.

On the other hand, my older brother's in a similar job, and they are unionized as well.  The way the bargaining group's set up, the people in his job are the ones that the union always "bargains" out.  Those guys don't represent him; they just take his dues.  No health care; he's got a 50% chance of cancer and doesn't have the means to find out, let alone seek treatment.

[popeye]

"it ain't the turn of the century and you don't have children in sweat shops"

Not in this country.  That's why it's cheaper to make stuff overseas, where they DO have sweatshops, and are free of those troublesome  regulations that protect our workers and our environment.

[Ripsnort]

Toad, I equally blame it on both, Unions and Management.  Unions asked for too much(think greed..our secretary at the local union hall had a starting wage of $75,000 a year, when our max. salary was $60,000 a year), Management then looked to outsource.

Incidently, why WOULD the price of a car come down if they outsource? Its THEIR business...this isn't a commonwealth nation.

[koala]

Bottom line is I think MOST folks in the US are pretty underpaid given the contribution they make to our society.

So what??

If they don't like it, do something else.  It's called freedom.

[Ripsnort]

Incidently, I've never been treat MORE FAIR in my life than my current job WITHOUT a union. When our company went to a closed shop union, guess what?  THE UNION STOPPED WORKING FOR US!!!  Ask anyone (yeager? Weave? help me out here..) about what we went on strike for in 1989, and 1995...about 5 cents more an hour!  It cost me $15,000 in pay to go on 2 strikes, I'll never recover that back again.  "Oh, but for the future, the big company won't try to take things away from you again"....roadkill!

I just got a Employee Incentive check for 9 days worth of pay for the last year of work.  Its incentive pay for doing a job well done, based on shareholder value , blah blah blah (many things tie into the value of this check)  My point is, the company has given me my biggest raises, step level progressions, and incentive checks as a salary employee than the Union EVER did as a union worker for 14 years.

Another thing that irks me about unions, you could have the laziest bastard who had the biggest drinking/drug problem who would NEVER be fired short of killing someone because HE'S UNION!

Now, OTOH, I've worked for a manager or two where I'm glad the PRESENCE of the union was there, or these managers would have had everyone fired just because they were fu$#ed up in the head.  So, its like sleeping with the devil, gotta have em to balance things out.

Incidently, ALF/CIO has got its lowest membership in years, and is short cash for its Democratic fund raising that they give each year, an avg. of $38,000,000 to the Dems each year.  If the Unions were not so politically motivated (they actually TOLD us who to vote for!) the I MIGHT have supported them more, but once you start that communist "VOTE FOR THIS PERSON" crap, you lost my interest.  Incidently, the company does NOT tell me who to vote for.

Anyway, I could go on and on about experiences about the Union here, but I just get too worked up over it.  Piss on unions I say, but dammit, gotta have em for the drunks who'd lose their jobs if not for the unions, and to keep management in check.

[miko2d]

The economy is self-regulated by the laws of supply and demand - of capital, labor, goods, talent.

 The only fair way to affect everyone equally is to have anti-trust laws and limit the working hours - and that has been done.

 Once you start putting artificial limitations in some places but not others, there arises a lot of opportunity for corruption, crime and exploiting the resulting inefficiency.

 It is commonly agreed that monopoly is a very bad thing. Union is a monopoly on labor - pure and simple. As any monopoly it uses extra-market means to benefit some people at teh expence of others.

 There is a balance established between shareholders profits, operating expences (including salaries), customer's expences and risks.
 The free flow of capital ensures that risk-adjusted shareholder's profits are the same in all industries/all companies. If it is different it is not for long since inflow of capital to more profitable area or closing of less profitable production will restore the balance.
 It's a zero-sum game or worse - not only blackmailed money comes out of some other people's pockets (customers, retirement funds who are the biggest shareholders) but the jobs disappear too once the disbalance becomes too great.

 miko

[Toad]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
So, its like sleeping with the devil, gotta have em to balance things out.

Which mirrors the essence of my statement that "The ONLY thing WORSE than having a Union is..... NOT HAVING a Union. "

Rip, you and I agree in almost every respect throughout this thread.


....and now to Eagler:

How would/did the Unions help Joe Sixpack working at Enron?

.

Well, for starters, the widespread availability of the 401K is almost certainly directly attributable to union lobbying/bargaining across the USA. So, they wouldn't even have a busted 401K to cry over without unions.

Secondly, unions will be the driving force behind reforming the 401K plans in order to offer more protection against this situation in the future. No, it won't prevent it entirely... crooked managers will still find ways to shaft employees in the retirement arena.. but it will help.

Thirdly, think about the "average" US lifestyle we all enjoy so much.

Know why you're kids are in school and not working like they did at the turn of the century?

Know why the "traditional" work week is 5 days and not 7 like it used to be?

Know why you have two weeks of paid vaction instead of none?

Know why you have a medical plan (in most jobs) instead of just a box of bandaids and a bottle of hydrogen peroxideon the wall at work?

Know why you have any sort of retirement plan at all?

.... well, I could go on and on, as you well know. Some of those are ancient history, but some aren't, like 401k improvements.

The bottom line is that "management" in the US fought hard against EVERY SINGLE ONE of these benefits for US workers and forecast the doom and destruction of the entire US economy should these benefits be given to the working masses.

YOU.. and all of us... have these benefits because Unions fought long.. in some cases over 100 years... to get them for their members. Once achieved, these bennies spread to the non-unionized workforce for obvious reasons. Who would work for a company that didn't offer medical benefits when he could work for one that did?

And when I say fight, I mean the kind where blood flows. In the early days it wasn't lawyers in three piece suits swapping inflammatory rhetoric; it was workers getting their heads cracked by the Pinkerton men that caused these changes.

Yeah, Unions do forked up stuff. They get fat and lazy and quit serving their electorate. Some ARE tied in with the mob.

Some Managements do forked up stuff. They get fat and lazy and quit serving their shareholders AND their employees. Some are tied in with the Mob. Some are the Mob. Some are just our and out thieves like the Enron crew.

There's no denying however that Unions have achieved and are still achieving improvements for the common working man (union and non-union alike). There's no denying that well run coporations are an assest to the economy AND the workforce.

As Rip pointed out... it's about balance. Unions are the counter balance to bad managers.

In my industry, Southwest stands out like a beacon. Mostly non-union, their employees have it every bit as good as any of the unionized carriers. Ask yourself "why is that"?

I'll give you  two reasons:

1) SW values its employees and is quite willing to pay them at or very near "industry standard".

2) SW goes out of its way to listen to its employees, show respect and reward them when their work helps the corporation. (Profit sharing)


So again... why is SW mostly non-union. Because happy employees don't join unions.


....and guess what... SW is probably the leading light in the industry in terms of shareholder value right now. Coincidence? I think not.

Koala: So what??

If they don't like it, do something else. It's called freedom.

Tell me, do you think teachers are over or underpaid considering the responibility they hold and the role they play in both raising and educating the nation's children. Without doubt, the job they do is a determining factor in the future success of the nation.

Supply and demand enters into it. There seems to be an endless supply of people willing to enter the teaching profession and wages stay low as a result.

But are you getting results you are happy with? The Cleveland school system and the non-accredited Kansas City, MO school districts are evidence that we are not. Simply because while they are getting the most publicity right now, the situation is nearly the same in many large cities.

Yet you can't raise wages to retain the better teachers because it is NOT a "free market". When teachers strike, the government ORDERS them back to work. (Now the NEA has a lot to answer for as well as the School District Mangagement... see my comment about the only thing WORSE than a union).

So, what do the teachers do? Exactly what you say... they move on.

And what you get is the Cleveland school system.