Author Topic: Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA  (Read 321 times)

Offline Preon1

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« on: February 21, 2002, 03:51:29 PM »
Intro:

Ever since 1.08 (patch 2?) came out, I have taken part in an often heated debate regarding the strategic system in the Main Arena.  In short, one group of players believes that the infrastructure and resupply system in the MA allows for strategic and tactical recovery at a rate that is so high that campaigns toward such targets are not worth the effort because the effects don't last long enough for this group to turn around and capture a base.  The other side believes that taking away strategic assets from an entire country creates a situation that is so lopsided that people on both sides of the war stop having fun.

Last night, HiTech said this:

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Our current plan is to create bigger terrains with 4 times as many bases.  Fields still remain the same distance apart, but it greatly increases the length of the front line.  This is why you have seen the max number of bases increased, and the changing of the map on the patch 2 versions ago, it was to optimize for larger terrains. Our current game plan is to create new terrains as soon as 1.09 stabilizes.


Given that we may soon be seeing maps that are FOUR times larger, I'd like to put forth for discussion a small addendum to the current suggestions for revamping the strategic system in the MA.

PROXY WARS

The basic idea comes from the dilemma that while people enjoy attacking strategic targets, once those targets have gone down, it now becomes unfair for the average person who has just gotten on to fly for a short period of time.  However, it also follows that a game based on WWII doesn't necessarily have to have 3 countries with a fluid front, but that strategic targets could also come in the form of separate proxy nations.

Here's how it works:

The Map
When you look at a fresh map before the combat begins, you see not only the bases and terrain, but also a political overlay marking boundaries between nations.  For aesthetic purposes, each nation could have a faint, but uniquely colored tint on it.  Obviously the largest of the nations on the map would be the bishop, knight, and rook homelands (and in interest of political correctness, their colors would be red, yellow, and blue).  At the beginning of the war, all three countries start with an equal number (prolly around 8) of proxy nations complete with military infrastructure.

Strategic Targets
Each nation has it's own headquarters, cities, depots and support targets.  Knocking out those targets only affects the bases under that nation's influence.

Attacking and Capturing Proxy Nations
The country with the most bases in a nation gets the benefit of having its strategic infrastructure.  Bases under aggressor control must be resupplied by convoy from an adjacent nation, by goon, or by slowed regeneration.  Once a country that captures the base that gives it the plurality of bases in the nation, the host not only announces that the base has changed hands, but also the nation (and with it, the strategic assets).

To Win the War
In order to win, all that must happen is a country wins a plurality of the bases in an enemy homeland.


Pros and Cons
Obviously this idea isn't fully baked (I came up with the details running around the Academy this morning)  Please feel free to chime in with problems and solutions.  Here are some pros and cons that I see with this system:

Pros
  • Strategic campaigns can be carried out without destroying a country's entire capability to wage an effective air campaign.
  • Interdiction campaigns can be carried out in such a way to deteriorate a region but not the entire target country.
  • Resets are easier and should allow for a faster map rotation.
  • Defensive campaigns become more important with greater focus on actual objectives.
  • Allows for more segmented communications.  Right now, channel 3 is useless.  But if the channel was expanded to all the friendly bases in the local nation, then it might be used more for relevant organization.


Cons
  • Could be difficult to implement.  It would involve changing a lot of code on the part of HTC.  (those who like this plan please help in convincing them that it's worth it)
  • Radar becomes a tricky issue for bases captured by encroaching forces.  I suggest that bases that don't have the support of an HQ don't get an integrated radar.  In other words, a pilot in that tower and lifting from that base only sees what the functional radar (or radars) at that base can see.
  • Furballs would be difficult to keep going.  So long as the furball is across a nation's border, then everything is fine.  Once it goes well into enemy territory, the aggressors will be at a distinct disadvantage and the furball will most likely end.



That's all I've got (for now)
Please feel free to tear into this idea.  Constructive comments are welcome.

Offline Preon1

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2002, 05:57:40 PM »
To clarify:

In order to own the strategic assets in a nation, you must own the most bases in that nation.

In order to win the war, you must capture most of the bases in an enemy's homeland.  BUT, in order to win this war, you'll have to approach the enemy homeland through other nations (or your attack will surely peter out due to lack of a supply line)

Offline NUTTZ

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2002, 06:08:24 PM »
Sorry, I didn't know this thread was going to involve Math:(

NUTTZ

Quote
Originally posted by Preon1
To clarify:

In order to own the strategic assets in a nation, you must own the most bases in that nation.

In order to win the war, you must capture most of the bases in an enemy's homeland.  BUT, in order to win this war, you'll have to approach the enemy homeland through other nations (or your attack will surely peter out due to lack of a supply line)

Offline kidcol

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2002, 06:24:24 PM »
All I gotta say is: glad you're on our side Preon :)

Hope your in charge of an AWACS or somethin, hehe :)

kid

p.s. I like the ideas, but seems a little down the road for HT, Heck, I'm just getting used to this whole "re-supply" thing.

Offline Preon1

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2002, 06:48:04 PM »
lol.

okay, I get it.  All I can say is that I'm only taking 17 hours of classes this semester (normally around 22).  Guess I'll put that extra time elsewhere.

kidcol, they're not putting me in an airplane.  I'm actually going to be a physicist.  I'll be working in the labs at Hanscom AFB in Boston starting July.

Offline eskimo2

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2002, 07:09:59 PM »
I love it Preon!
It's a brilliant idea, salute.

About the only thing that I would suggest is that perhaps it would be better for one country to capture 100% of the bases within one nation before it gained any benefit from the strat within that nation.  I.E. if a nation's bases were owned by all three countries, only the original owners would benefit from any strategic targets.  (Not completely thought out yet, just a concept.)

Also, I think the post may be difficult to read and follow, but I really want to encourage folks to read it.  It makes a lot of sense, and really is not as complicated as it may seem at first.
The terminology may be a bit confusing.
Perhaps a different way of thinking of it would be one country, made up of four states.
The states and resources can be captured.
A country must lose all 4 states to lose the war.
Either way, it will be unlikely for your country to lose 100% of its radar unless you are down to your last state (for example).

eskimo

Offline Preon1

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2002, 08:06:53 AM »
I've gotta Punt! this one.  At least give it one more shot before fading away.

Offline Seeker

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2002, 08:23:17 AM »
Sounds like some early DOS AW maps I've heard of (before my time); where the centre area of the map was, at the start of play; populated by capturable neutral fields; with HT's strat system overlaid.

And I think it shows a lot of promise.

A home sector with the current "Insta-rebuild" ensures a core of happy fliers.

A map of capturable, porkable bases with meaningfully related strat targets (How about having to land a gooney at a depot to pick up supplies: - landing in a non-home sector to pick up suplies from a depot with no or cut infra structure links pays - say - 2 perkies?; dropping the supplies doubles it, getting home triples it), all this keeps the Strat guys happy if it helps move the war front back and forwards over the map.

Arena Warfare moves towards a more realistic philosophy of territorial dominance and resource access/denial.

Tactical interdiction becomes a worthwhile pursuit - and the heavies have a purpose again.

Offline Sabre

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2002, 11:49:02 AM »
Preon1: Salute!  You've got me thinking (a dangerous pastime,  no?), and I've come up with an alternate proposal.  Here it is:

The concept laid out here has been heavily influenced by the on-going debate on the AH strategic system.  When HiTech chimed in the other day in Eskimo’s thread, I was at first disappointed on his views on the subject.  Re-reading them however has lead me to better understand both sides of this whole issue.  The central issue as I understand it is how do you change the strategic game system to provide more game-playing fun for the strat/immersion crowd without negatively impacting the enjoyment of the A2A purists?  This is the acid test that any change must pass.  I’ll start by laying out restrictions and assumptions.  I ask that the reader give them careful consideration, and frame responses with them in mind.

Restrictions:

1. Any change in the strat system must be no more restricting to the individual pilot in the cockpit than the current system.  By this I mean the ability to choose an aircraft, take off, find a fight, and engage the enemy in A2A combat.  This is the toughest restriction, and may require compromise.  However, any compromise should be weighted towards the A2A crowd.

2. Any wide-scale impact (action at point A effecting operations at point B) must require more than a couple players to accomplish, and must be of limited duration.  The idea is to create a window of opportunity for the offense, rather than open up a gaping whole in the defense.  I used 10 people as a base line figure when defining “more than a couple.”

Assumptions: These are the things that have already been announced by HTC as coming down the pipe in the AH development cycle.

1. Larger Maps will be the norm in the MA, with more fields and objects allowed in the TE.

2. The newly eluded to “Attack Warning” system will be in place, allowing changes to radar coverage in the MA without hobbling the defense too much.

3. Bomber enhancements implemented.  Particularly I mean the addition of bomb dispersion, multi-aircraft option, and (hopefully) a fix for the “firing through your own plane” bug.

4. The re-arm pad code would be changed, such that re-arming on the re-arm pad would be tied to damage at that base.  Example: if base fuel is down to 75%, then you could only load 75% fuel by hitting the re-arm pad.

Concept:

Rather than the “Proxy War” idea put forth by Preon1, we instead divide up each of the three countries’ territory into three “strategic provinces.”  Each strategic province, or SP, will have it’s own organic strategic infrastructure (HQ, city, refinery, troop training camp, ammo factory, flak factory, depots, and train stations).  Attacks against these facilities will only affect rebuild times and resupply in that province.  The nature of those effects will be similar to what they are now, but with some important differences.  Arena reset would occur when any country completely looses two of their three provinces (i.e. all bases and depots in those two provinces captured by enemy forces).  This localizes the impact of strategic strikes.  Kill a regional HQ – let’s call it the Provincial Air Defense Center, or PADC (pronounced “pad-see”) – and you affect radar only in that province, in effect creating a hole in coverage.  The attack warning system would be completely unaffected by HQ damage.  Strat target size and hardness would be such that approximately ten B-17s would be required to completely destroy it.

Rebuild and Resupply – This is the meat of the changes.  First, you totally eliminate the player resupply (via goons and M-3s) of strategic targets, including depots and train stations.  Each strat target would have a maximum down-time, assuming no convoys or trains reach them earlier.  For a city (now a provincial capitol, rather than the country capital) we make that, say, 120 minutes.  Now, for every train that reaches the city 15 minutes are subtracted from the down-time.  So, if a city is completely destroyed (and assuming a train arrives every 15 minutes), the city would normally be rebuilt in one hour (2 hours – {4 x 15 minutes/train} = 1 hour).  Kill the first train feeding the city, and the rebuild time will be an hour and fifteen minutes; kill two trains in a row and the rebuild time is an hour and a half.  The point is, the city will rebuild no later than two hours, and could rebuild 60 minutes earlier if the enemy ignores the trains and/or train station.  Other strat targets like refineries would have maximum rebuild times that would be dynamic, that is, the max rebuild time would be affected by the status of the provincial capitol.  Again that maximum time would be shortened by timely arrival of their trains.

How would all this affect rebuild times at the pointy-end of the spear, i.e. the airfields, ports, and vehicle fields?  Hanger down-time would remain 15 minutes as it is now, and would be unaffected by convoys or goons/M-3s.  Other field objects (fuel, radar, barracks, ammo) would have a maximum, un-supplied rebuild time just like strat targets which would be at least a half hour to an hour.  There are two ways to speed up rebuild: convoy/barges or goons/M-3 resupply.  We’ll deal first with the first method, convoy/barge resupply.  Arrival of a convoy or resupply goon/M-3 will immediately (within 3 minutes that is) rebuild field objects.  The difference is that the level they can rebuilt to will be dictated by the level of damage to that province’s like-item strat facility.  Taking fuel as an example, let’s say field A20’s max fuel load-out has been reduced by enemy attack to 50%.  The provincial refinery complex for that area was also attacked and stands at 75%.  When a convoy arrives, the fuel will be immediately restored to 75%, the maximum that can be supported by the provincial refinery.  Ammo would have to be subdivided to allow for a gradual loss of offensive weaponry, rather than the all-or-nothing availability we have now.  A possible correlation between ammo bunker status and ordnance availability might look like the following:

Ammo Bunker Status-
0-25% = MG/cannon available
26-50% = MG/cannon and rockets available
51-75% = MG/cannon, rockets, and light bombs available
76-100% = All ordnance available

The second method, goon/M-3 resupply would work somewhat differently.  Resupply by goon or M-3 represents a redistribution of supplies between front-line bases, rather than resupply by the province’s strategic infrastructure.  Goon/M-3 load-outs would be changed such that instead of selecting “field supplies” as a load-out option, the pilot/driver would be able to select up to two “cargo pallets,” similar to how Jabo pilots can select load-outs for multiple hard-point.  There would be fuel pallets, ammo pallets, radar pallets, and barracks pallets.  Successfully delivering a pallet by goon or M-3 (oh, and LVT’s…almost forgot those) would completely restore that resource at the field.  HOWEVER, each type of pallet would only be available from fields where that resource type is undamaged!  In other words, you couldn’t select a fuel pallet to load in your C-47 if the field you’re launching from has damaged fuel tanks.  So each goon/M-3/LVT could only rebuild two types of damage per trip.

The above system works fine until you start talking about captured enemy bases.  How does rebuild/resupply work for bases you capture in enemy provinces?  Well, in all cases any base will eventually rebuild on its own, regardless of whether they receive resupply via convoys or goons.  Resupply by goon/M-3/LVT would work exactly like the same, too.  To re-establish automatic supply by convoy/barge would require you to capture the enemy depot feeding that base.  Depots would be dynamically assigned to a province (the closest friendly one) upon being captured, to insure rebuild limits for newly captured bases would have the same restrictions as home-country bases.

Conclusion: The above system would allow a reasonably sized strategic strike to create a window of opportunity for the capture of bases.  Yet the effects on the individual defending pilot’s freedom of action would be no more than they are now under the current AH system.  Less so in some ways, as they would only affect things on a provincial level, not the entire country.  The key is that damaging strat targets would not impact the current status at any bases, only the rebuild times of things already damaged there.  The player resupply system would still be there to speed repair, but only to the level dictated by the current strat targets in that province.  No more spawning a C47 on the runway or hitting the re-arm pad repeatedly at a damaged base to speed rebuild it.  No one or two players could have much impact by attacking strat targets, either.  Why?  Because in general one or two players could not do damage fast enough (fly to target, drop bombs, rtb or auger, repeat) fast enough on their own to keep up with the train resupply.

I invite your comments and critique.  I also ask that when you review this you remember that strat used to have more impact than it does now, and this simply seeks to redress that loss of impact.  For the A2A purists (I dislike the negative connotation that the term “furballer” has acquired), I ask you that you be honest with yourselves when deciding if the above suggestions would truly spoil your enjoyment of AH, or simply inconvenience you a bit.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline the_hegemon

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2002, 02:42:47 PM »
Very interesting ideas.  I would definately like to see them implemented eventually.

If we are going to have a realistic infrastructure, we will need roads and railroads running all over the place, so that every base can be reached from at least two other bases.  This way, convoys can arrive without traveling through enemy held territory (unless there was a way to clearly distinguish between the which country the convoy was from).

And as long as we have roads and railroads everywhere, why not make it so that you get a speed advantage on the road, and so that you can load up your tank/armored vehicle on a train and get a ride to the front lines(or reasonably close)?  Would make things very interesting, with an added incintive to kill trains.

Offline Preon1

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Proxy wars: A strategic compromise for the MA
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2002, 08:20:50 AM »
Wow sabre, you really DID get thinking.  I'm definately going to save the stuff on this thread and present a new one like it after 1.09 comes out.  I get the impression that some of this stuff will have to wait until 1.2 or something.

When I do, I don't think I want to post specifics.  Just the idea that the map should be split into multiple capturable regions with their own strat.  That way the strat and the A2A guys can all have thier fun.