Flying the P-38

[BigCrate]

I'm posting this because I fly the P-38 (and I suck at it!).
And i don't want someone else that starts to fly the 38 make the same foul ups I'm making right. I'm gonna post some specs. 1st before i start talking about anything.

The corner speed is 208mph.
drop your 1st notch of flaps at 250mph
2nd at 225 3rd at 200 4th at 175 5th below 150.

Ok now that I said that. Me tell yall this NEVER GET LOW AND SLOW IN A P38 ever!!! If you get slow you die if you get low you die. Speed and alt is life in a 38. When flying a 38 your walking a tight rope that is less than 1/16 of an inch wide. If you get below corner speed you will not have enuff speed to disengage fight a fight if needed. But if you have to much speed say 350-325. You are way to fast. The 38's turn is way to big in the vertical plane so that speed is just wasted. You want to be at about 275 to corner speed. You can use flaps at most of these speeds which will make the vert. turns very tight. Now maneuvering in the vertical plane requires you have a certain speed.  You have a min. and a max speed at which you can pull nose high moves. To fast you have to watch the Gs so you don't black out. To slow you will stall out before you complete the maneuver. I'm gonna say the min speed for vert. moves is gonna be the same as your corner speed. But your max speed is gonna be something in the range of 300mph. You can still black out at that speed but once you get nose the speed starts to bleed off and your turn tightens. The 38 has a massive amount of horsepower than most fighters. So use that horsepower to your adv. Get above your bogey and stay above him. If you ever get below your bogey you have already lost the fight unless you have a massive amount of E so you can zoom climb above him again. Even still the bogey can lead turn on you for a snap shot. So always stay above your target and Never get slow. Once you get used to flying the 38 one will not come without the other.

Lets talk about alt now. I talked about speed that is one half on the tight rope alt is the other half. Lose one you die its a balancing act flying the 38 is. You have to juggle your speed and alt to kill that damn spit your fightin. Now alt is easier than speed to juggle. But not much easier. You can always have to much alt!
The 38's dive performance sucks! Saying that means if you have to much alt on a nme you will compress on overshoot badly allowing him to lead turn on ya for a snapshot. So alway try to start with alt adv. But not a big alt adv. If you have more than 6 or 7k over  the nme your to high. You really need to be in the range of 3-4k over the nme. Because being that close will  tempt him to climb up to you. If you see him doing that wait until you are just out of gun range say 1k away then dive on him. He will be slow and easy meat for you.  But if he doesn't climb to you just "dance on his head" some if you can W/O getting blindsided by one of his buddies. then just cut power and roll over dive pounce on him. If he see you doing this he will break turn and try to get his nose pointed at you for a HO snapshot.  Don't fallow him in the turn. Go into a hi yoyo and remember to apply power.
And stick with him. Using vcertical turns, hi yoyos barrel roll attacks moves like that to bleed that spit dweebs E faster than you bleed your own. Only pulinh about 3-4.5 Gs while the spit is pulling like 5-6 Gs trying to stay alive.
And if you don't stick with him then he jut dives away he the fight is over. You have to be aggressive be not stupid always fly with your head not your muscles. This is where 38 drivers differ from spit drivers or any other driver for that matter!

Now SA is a big part of flying the 38 but I'll give yall a link cause I can't explain it very good. Well I had a link!! I'll try to scrap one up here in alitttle awhile..
Tell me what yall think of what I posted and tell me if it helps any.

Cw
=Twin Engined Devil=

PS the 38 is a pain in the bellybutton to fly!!! It attracts spits and nik like crazy so take your lumbs.. HEHEe I can't take my lumbs very well so I get pissed alot

[BigCrate]

Errr corner speed for the 38 is 233mph with 2 notches of flaps down.

Cw

[dgator]

I disagree with the comment on flying slow and low you die. If handled properly and of course with flaps down you will be amazed of the turning ability of the p38. About the only plane I will not turn fight with is the zero. Give me any other axis plane and I can fair pretty well in a slow turn fight . It just takes practice and not rushing it for a score. Now I don't make it a practice to get myself in that kind of situation but if it happens all is not lost.

dgator
aka ovmech, former CO 315 Polish RAF Warbirds,
former CO 82nd FG Warbirds.

[akak]

The only planes I try not to be slow and low around are Spitfires and Japanese fighters.  I've found that it's very easy to kill La7's and Yaks by getting them low and slow with you and either turn fighting them or making them stall fight.  German planes, like in AW, are easy to out turn in the P-38 [now if that comment doesn't make the LuftWhiners whine].

For what it's worth, the transition from AW's P-38 to Aces High's P-38 isn't all that hard.  You already know the principles of flying the plane, the only thing that you have to learn and get used to is the flight model.  The same tactics you used in AW apply here, with the exception of being able to out turn Spitfires.  Stall loops, hammerheads, double and even triple Immels can still be done.  Maybe because in AW, I used a blend of energy and angles fighting in the P-38 that switching over has been relatively smooth for me since I use the same tactics here in Aces High.



Ack-Ack
479th Fighter Group - Riddle's Raiders

[daddog]

Good post with some good information, but I don't agree with all of it. The P-38 has been my ride for years in this sim and Warbirds. I am not the best in it, but I do well.

She does turn well using flaps, but not that well. If you try to out turn a Spitfire you will lose. There are several other AC she can't out turn assuming both pilots have reasonable experience. I could go on but citabria/fester has a nice write up that is not linked anymore. Tac and some others know the P-38 also. I would get some details from them if you looking how to fly the 38.

Citabria's Guide to the P-38L

   

  Airspeed Characteristics

  all speeds are calibrated air speed

  Stall speed power on:
  Flaps up:  +108mph
  Flaps down:  +95mph

  Minimum single engine flight speed:
  150mph

  Maximum dive speed (structural failure):
  550mph

  Minimum loop entry speed (dependant on weight/loading and skill):
  150-180mph

  Best Rate of climb speed(default):
  175mph

  Best Roll rate speed(range):
  250mph-500mph

  Best speed @ altitude:
  414mph @ 25,000 feet

  Maneuvering flaps speed:
  250mph

  Full Flaps speed:
  150mph

  Gear extended structural failure speed:
  200mph

  Take-Off

  Upward elevator trim makes takeoff easier but it's not necessary.  Flaps
  are used at the pilot's discretion.  They do shorten takeoff and obstacle
  clearance distance if deployed 1 or 2 notches after accelerating to
  130mph.  Start the engines either one at a time if you are in a historical
  mood with shift 1 and e then shift 2 and e followed by shift and e to link
  the throttles after startup or simply start both at the same time.

  Takeoff is much easier in the Lightning due to its counter-rotating
  propellers.  It is possible to firewall the throttles of the p-38 with no
  adverse control problems.  After gaining a positive rate of climb after
  liftoff retract the gear and flaps.

  Climbout

  Full throttle with a default climb of 175mph will get you to altitude the
  quickest however a climbspeed of 200mph is a great speed for cruise
  climbing to the target area.

  Cruising

  Takeoff and military:  3000 RPM 54" auto rich 162 gal/hour/engine
  War emergency:  3000 RPM 60" auto rich 160 gal/hour/engine
  Normal rated:  2600 RPM 44" auto rich 115 gal/hour/engine
  Maximum cruise:  2300 RPM 35" auto lean 60 gal/hour/engine

  Cruising will most likely be full throttle in AH though.  The big Lockheed
  Lightning carries with drop tanks up to 710 gallons of gas in Aces High.
   That's 4615 pounds of fuel!  So if you brought the fuel and drop tanks it is
  yours to burn.  I've found a 50% fuel load with a drop tank or two is plenty
  for base defense since you can get rid of 150-300gal of fuel in a jam and still
  have fuel for the fight.  However, when going hunting on a high altitude
  multiple kill sweep sortie I take full fuel and drop tanks.  Fuel loading
  depends simply upon the flying style you use and how much time(fuel)
  bought at the expense of performance you feel you can take and succeed in
  your objectives.

  Fuel Management

  Fuel tanks:  The P-38Ls were issued with 6 fuel tanks, 2 x 93 Gal. Main wing
  tanks on the rear part of the inner wing, 2 x 60 Gal. Reserve tanks on the front
  part of the inner wing, besides the pilot, and 2 x 55 Gal. Outer wing tanks on
  the outer wing leading edges, besides 1 or 2 165 or 300 Gal. Drop tanks.  The
  Flight Manual recommended the following order for conpsumption for those
  tanks:

       1) Reserve tanks for the first 15 minutes of flight
       2) External drop tanks
       3) Outer wing tanks
       4) Main fuel tanks
       5) Reserve tanks


  Managing the fuel tanks can be tricky in the Aces High P-38.  After
  consuming drop tanks, switch to the mains and use them up before using
  the aux tanks.  In Aces High the main tanks each (RM&LM) and Aux
  tanks (LA&RA) are located between the cockpit and the engine nacels in
  the inner wing.  The main tanks are in the rear behind the aux tanks so use
  up the main tanks first by manually selecting them and switching between
  LM & RM to balance fuel.  The outer wing tanks on the real P-38L are
  combined with the main fuel tanks in AH.  Throttling back to save fuel can
  be done in two ways:  cruising down at 35"@2300rpm or turning off one
  engine and leaving the other at full throttle.  I've found flying single engine
  more efficient at stretching fumes back to base than throttling back, in fact
  this was a tactic often used by real Lightning pilots returning on low fuel.

  Generally when you get down to ¼ tank in the LA&RA after emptying the
  mains its best to head home, the last quarter of fuel in the tanks seems to
  disappear much faster than the rest.

  Landing

  Surviving against the odds on a successful sortie to hear the wheels chirp is
  quite satisfying.  The easiest landing for the p-38 is to use a shallow descent
  and full flaps and gear extended at 165mph.  Slow to about 140mph on short
  final slipping the aircraft with rudder to lose altitude if necessary and touch
  down rear wheels first.  Holding the nose up will air brake the P-38 but if
  you hold it up to high you will scrape the tail.  When braking it is more
  effective to pump the brakes than just hold them down if you are running
  out of runway.  Landing with damage and a single engine you should touch
  down at 150mph, any slower and bad things might happen.

  Armament

  Full ammo is my preference because I use up the excess quickly.  If you are
  an excellent shot you might only need the smaller 50cal load which runs out
  same time as cannon, but it goes quite fast.  Usually more ammo is better
  because you can get rid of it quickly.  The P-38L has the best gun platform
  in the game, the guns fire straight all the way out until they drop off.
  However it is possible that vertical convergence could be an issue, so the
  superstitious like me use 300 yards.

  Rockets are an excellent weapon on the P-38L best used at a 45 degree
  dive and 400mph.  On a good day you can take out 5 acks at 2 rockets a
  piece.

  I always take 1000lb bombs if I take any, they hurt climb and top speed but
  I usually climb to only 10k for bomb and rocket attacks and the 1k bombs
  have a better punch for obvious reasons.

  Performance and Tactics

  The P-38 is the best middle of the pack fighter in AH.  It turn fights the
  faster planes and e fights the better turning slow ones.  The P-38 is best
  used exclusively as an E fighter to capitalize on its excellent vertical
  performance and also since it's large planform size gives the enemy an easy
  shot in a knife fight.

  One rule of the Lightning is flaps.  The P-38L lives and dies by the use of
  flaps and they are vital to maneuvering with the other aircraft in Aces High.
   In turns 2 notches of maneuvering flaps are best for most fights but some
  use full flaps for a momentary gain in angles on really tough fights and when
  squeeking the p38 over the top of an extremely low speed loop.  However
  when not turning it is necessary to reel in the flaps since they slow you
  down a lot.

  The big lockheed twin also has among the most potent superchargers in
  Aces High.  High altitudes of 18 to 25k are where the P-38L rules the sky.

  Initial dive performance of the 12,780lb empty to 21,600lb max load P-38 is
  excellent.  It literally falls out of the sky like a screaming brick, however
  this becomes a problem at higher altitudes as the Lightning quickly
  exceeds 460mph where it begins to experience structural fatigue and finally
  failure at 545 to 550 mph.  Usually both sections of the elevator or both
  ailerons are the first to go if not perfectly trimmed, making recovery
  difficult.

  Roll performance is enhanced by hydraulic assistance but this only helps the
  P38L at faster speeds.  As speed drops below 250mph the roll rate of the
  goes from excellent to average since full deflection of the ailerons has less
  effect at low speed due to the inertia of the twin booms and 52 foot
  wingspan which frankly makes the airplane quite stable.  It is best to use
  rudder to speed an entry into the roll at these slow speeds.  But even with
  rudder assisted roll entry the roll rate at slow speed is a weakness of the
  Lightning in a knife fight.

  One maneuver the P-38L has due to neutral torque is it's ability to pull off
  low speed stalling loops where the Lightning at +150mph has just enough to
  get the nose over the top while throwing in full flaps that it is able to fall
  over the other side of the loop.  This maneuver can in some instances
  reverse the situation completely and put the formerly defensive p-38 on the
  offensive on the torqued out opponent who could not follow.  This tactic is
  most effective on 109g10s, p51s and other aircraft with lots of torque and
  higher stall speeds.  Spitfires and other turn-and-burn aircraft are not
  shaken by this move.

  The P-38 has an excellent initial turn, so it can cash in this card for a
  snapshot on more maneuverable aircraft but if it misses it will be forced
  defensive in most cases.

  The Lightning is truly one of the best fighters of World War II, but it is an
  honest airplane with weaknesses that can be exploited if the lightning pilot
  is not careful.  Although slower than the late war mosters it can still hold its
  own and emerge triumphant in the worst of situations.

[FLS]

Great write up on the P-38. Thanks to Citabira for writing it and daddog for posting it.

Here are two good P-38 sites, the first includes a copy of the operating manual and the second details the various models.

http://home.worldonline.dk/~winthrop/p38.html

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38.html

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[laz]

*SLAP* CW, don't use flaps until your around 190mph.  If you use flaps before then, your creating unwanted drag, and unwanted drag = unwanted speed loss. Stay fast in 38. but if you see 51's 47's and 190's, go turn with them.  killing a poopfire requires speed and brains.

[BigCrate]

Hmmmmm seems everyone that has read this so far has disagreed. 2 reasons I posted this.
One to see if I'm doing things right.
Two to tell the new guys trying the 38 not to the same fuk ups I'm doing.
Lazer bud I try to stay around corner speed with a notch of flaps deployed. Its my flying thats gets me killed. I either lose sight on the nme for more than 3 or 4 sec. or I employ the wrong maneuver for the situation. I go hi they go low and extend away i follow for abit i break off. They turn back to me after I break off
Start to gain on me. I turn towards them for a headon merge
at which I only have bout 250 or so mph after breaking off and turning back towards em. I have no E for merge and I'm dead before I even merge. I can only maneuver in the vertical plane once maybe twice. I dare not try to turn with the spit. And I can't go nose hi. And you can only go nose low for so long before the grounds gets in the way . Although you could get on the outside track.. I havn't lived long enough to do this against a spit to try it. But it might work at about 165-150mph with 3 or notches of flaps deployed. Or you could try a cloverleaf turn.
But the 38 in AH wants to flick roll over if pulled to hard unlike the 38 in real life. But it still might work. Just something to chew on.
hehehhehe Just started reading the 1v1 maneuvering Dissimilar aircraft section in Fighter Combat. Alot of the stuff shaw states is true. And seeing how the 38 is the most dissimilar fighter in AH
(ie twin engine twin boom aircraft with high wing loading and probly the best power loading plane in AH something 6to1 compare to the spit is like 2-3to1.) heheheh I think I'll have to double check that. Hust chew on this stuff and tell mewhat yall thing.

PS lazer me using my flaps at higher speeds is the way you used flaps in AW so its a habit.. I'm trying to break my AW habits. Slowly but surely I am.

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

[laz]

DUDE.. I see the mistake you make when flying and that is getting to slow.  Use NO flaps, unless your doing hard turning fight, or nudging over a loop. I can help you when i see ya next, but try NOT turning/flapping so much.  You may no agree, but i am just letting ya know what i see =P

[BigCrate]

Lazer heheh i do get to slow... I'm flying with AW tactics and not
AH tactics.. But when flying the hog in AW is like flying the 38 the way its surposed do it. I'll start deploying flaps like the AW 38
1 notch at 175mph
2 notches at 150mph
3 notches at 125mph
full flaps below 115mph
And also me getting slow is partly my sticks fault.
Damn MS sidewinder stick has a short throw. Can only move the stick only afew cms I'm breaking my arm just trying not to black out or stall or spin.

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

[Gremlin]

Gotta tell ya guys I fly P-51D pretty much exclusively. Unless its above 25K alt I have not yet been out-turned by a P-38.  I would be more than happy to test this with anyone who thinks they can turn a 38 to it's max.



Gremlin.

[Andy Bush]

All of this info regarding corner velocity and flaps is a bit confusing!

Usually CV is based on a clean configuration and a specified altitude, gross weight, and power setting...such as sea level, 1/2 internal fuel, and WEP.

Any use of flaps above this speed is normally counter-productive...all you get is extra drag and NO increase in turn performance...by definition...unless you want to exceed design limits.

Now, if someone wants to figure out a "corner speed" for a given flap setting below the clean CV, then have at it...but the same rules apply...a specific altitude, weight, and power setting has to be given. That speed will only be valid for those conditions.

Andy

[Tac]

Below 250mph your p51 is dead meat turning with a 38 gremlin. From 250 to 350 the P-51 will initially out-turn the 38 because u can deploy your flaps at higher speeds, but you will very quickly get below 250 turning with that drag.

Thats why no decent P-51 ever wants to get below 250 .