Author Topic: Strat gameplay discussion  (Read 510 times)

Offline Sabre

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Strat gameplay discussion
« on: February 22, 2002, 01:02:48 PM »
Figured this really belongs here, rather than the General board.  Hope HTC folks read this.

The concept laid out here has been heavily influenced by the on-going debate on the AH strategic system.  When HiTech chimed in the other day in Eskimo’s thread, I was at first disappointed on his views on the subject.  Re-reading them however has lead me to better understand both sides of this whole issue.  The central issue as I understand it is how do you change the strategic game system to provide more game-playing fun for the strat/immersion crowd without negatively impacting the enjoyment of the A2A purists?  This is the acid test that any change must pass.  I’ll start by laying out restrictions and assumptions.  I ask that the reader give them careful consideration, and frame responses with them in mind.

Restrictions:

1. Any change in the strat system must be no more restricting to the individual pilot in the cockpit than the current system.  By this I mean the ability to choose an aircraft, take off, find a fight, and engage the enemy in A2A combat.  This is the toughest restriction, and may require compromise.  However, any compromise should be weighted towards the A2A crowd.

2. Any wide-scale impact (action at point A effecting operations at point B) must require more than a couple players to accomplish, and must be of limited duration.  The idea is to create a window of opportunity for the offense, rather than open up a gaping whole in the defense.  I used 10 people as a base line figure when defining “more than a couple.”

Assumptions: These are the things that have already been announced by HTC as coming down the pipe in the AH development cycle.

1. Larger Maps will be the norm in the MA, with more fields and objects allowed in the TE.

2. The newly eluded to “Attack Warning” system will be in place, allowing changes to radar coverage in the MA without hobbling the defense too much.

3. Bomber enhancements implemented.  Particularly I mean the addition of bomb dispersion, multi-aircraft option, and (hopefully) a fix for the “firing through your own plane” bug.

4. The re-arm pad code would be changed, such that re-arming on the re-arm pad would be tied to damage at that base.  Example: if base fuel is down to 75%, then you could only load 75% fuel by hitting the re-arm pad.

Concept:

Rather than the “Proxy War” idea put forth by Preon1, we instead divide up each of the three countries’ territory into three “strategic provinces.”  Each strategic province, or SP, will have it’s own organic strategic infrastructure (HQ, city, refinery, troop training camp, ammo factory, flak factory, depots, and train stations).  Attacks against these facilities will only affect rebuild times and resupply in that province.  The nature of those effects will be similar to what they are now, but with some important differences.  Arena reset would occur when any country completely looses two of their three provinces (i.e. all bases and depots in those two provinces captured by enemy forces).  This localizes the impact of strategic strikes.  Kill a regional HQ – let’s call it the Provincial Air Defense Center, or PADC (pronounced “pad-see”) – and you affect radar only in that province, in effect creating a hole in coverage.  The attack warning system would be completely unaffected by HQ damage.  Strat target size and hardness would be such that approximately ten B-17s would be required to completely destroy it.

Rebuild and Resupply – This is the meat of the changes.  First, you totally eliminate the player resupply (via goons and M-3s) of strategic targets, including depots and train stations.  Each strat target would have a maximum down-time, assuming no convoys or trains reach them earlier.  For a city (now a provincial capitol, rather than the country capital) we make that, say, 120 minutes.  Now, for every train that reaches the city 15 minutes are subtracted from the down-time.  So, if a city is completely destroyed (and assuming a train arrives every 15 minutes), the city would normally be rebuilt in one hour (2 hours – {4 x 15 minutes/train} = 1 hour).  Kill the first train feeding the city, and the rebuild time will be an hour and fifteen minutes; kill two trains in a row and the rebuild time is an hour and a half.  The point is, the city will rebuild no later than two hours, and could rebuild 60 minutes earlier if the enemy ignores the trains and/or train station.  Other strat targets like refineries would have maximum rebuild times that would be dynamic, that is, the max rebuild time would be affected by the status of the provincial capitol.  Again that maximum time would be shortened by timely arrival of their trains.

How would all this affect rebuild times at the pointy-end of the spear, i.e. the airfields, ports, and vehicle fields?  Hanger down-time would remain 15 minutes as it is now, and would be unaffected by convoys or goons/M-3s.  Other field objects (fuel, radar, barracks, ammo) would have a maximum, un-supplied rebuild time just like strat targets which would be at least a half hour to an hour.  There are two ways to speed up rebuild: convoy/barges or goons/M-3 resupply.  We’ll deal first with the first method, convoy/barge resupply.  Arrival of a convoy or resupply goon/M-3 will immediately (within 3 minutes that is) rebuild field objects.  The difference is that the level they can rebuilt to will be dictated by the level of damage to that province’s like-item strat facility.  Taking fuel as an example, let’s say field A20’s max fuel load-out has been reduced by enemy attack to 50%.  The provincial refinery complex for that area was also attacked and stands at 75%.  When a convoy arrives, the fuel will be immediately restored to 75%, the maximum that can be supported by the provincial refinery.  Ammo would have to be subdivided to allow for a gradual loss of offensive weaponry, rather than the all-or-nothing availability we have now.  A possible correlation between ammo bunker status and ordnance availability might look like the following:

Ammo Bunker Status-
0-25% = MG/cannon available
26-50% = MG/cannon and rockets available
51-75% = MG/cannon, rockets, and light bombs available
76-100% = All ordnance available

The second method, goon/M-3 resupply would work somewhat differently.  Resupply by goon or M-3 represents a redistribution of supplies between front-line bases, rather than resupply by the province’s strategic infrastructure.  Goon/M-3 load-outs would be changed such that instead of selecting “field supplies” as a load-out option, the pilot/driver would be able to select up to two “cargo pallets,” similar to how Jabo pilots can select load-outs for multiple hard-point.  There would be fuel pallets, ammo pallets, radar pallets, and barracks pallets.  Successfully delivering a pallet by goon or M-3 (oh, and LVT’s…almost forgot those) would completely restore that resource at the field.  HOWEVER, each type of pallet would only be available from fields where that resource type is undamaged!  In other words, you couldn’t select a fuel pallet to load in your C-47 if the field you’re launching from has damaged fuel tanks.  So each goon/M-3/LVT could only rebuild two types of damage per trip.

The above system works fine until you start talking about captured enemy bases.  How does rebuild/resupply work for bases you capture in enemy provinces?  Well, in all cases any base will eventually rebuild on its own, regardless of whether they receive resupply via convoys or goons.  Resupply by goon/M-3/LVT would work exactly like the same, too.  To re-establish automatic supply by convoy/barge would require you to capture the enemy depot feeding that base.  Depots would be dynamically assigned to a province (the closest friendly one) upon being captured, to insure rebuild limits for newly captured bases would have the same restrictions as home-country bases.

Conclusion: The above system would allow a reasonably sized strategic strike to create a window of opportunity for the capture of bases.  Yet the effects on the individual defending pilot’s freedom of action would be no more than they are now under the current AH system.  Less so in some ways, as they would only affect things on a provincial level, not the entire country.  The key is that damaging strat targets would not impact the current status at any bases, only the rebuild times of things already damaged there.  The player resupply system would still be there to speed repair, but only to the level dictated by the current strat targets in that province.  No more spawning a C47 on the runway or hitting the re-arm pad repeatedly at a damaged base to speed rebuild it.  No one or two players could have much impact by attacking strat targets, either.  Why?  Because in general one or two players could not do damage fast enough (fly to target, drop bombs, rtb or auger, repeat) fast enough on their own to keep up with the train resupply.

I invite your comments and critique.  I also ask that when you review this you remember that strat used to have more impact than it does now, and this simply seeks to redress that loss of impact.  For the A2A purists (I dislike the negative connotation that the term “furballer” has acquired), I ask you that you be honest with yourselves when deciding if the above suggestions would truly spoil your enjoyment of AH, or simply inconvenience you a bit.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2002, 01:46:03 PM »
Not to knock you off your block but I think everyone needs to understand that HiTech is the dweeb at HTC.  It is he who finds pure pleasure in the free for all no holds barred furball orgy (like lazs).

On the other hand, Pyro is the guy who pays attention to "us".
"We" of higher intellectual stature.   Are we serious?  Yes.
If it were up to HiTech, AcesHigh would be just like......AcesHigh.
Yet if Pyro wings the battle, we would end up with a more serious simulation of combat.  Pyro must win.  pyro......must.....win.  

As good as the intent of your thread appears to be, "We" need to make sure that Pyro wins the battle of good vrs dweeb at HTC by insuring that HiTech works FOR Pyro and not the other way around (dont let em fool ya into thinking HTC is some sort of feel good, everyones the boss liberal type of hippie outfit).

There must be a way...........good vrs dweeb, good vrs dweeb.
Yes, there must be a way.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline popeye

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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2002, 03:10:18 PM »
A lot depends on changes in bomber modelling.  If one guy in a 30K Lanc (or flight of four Lanc's) can kill all the FH's for 15 minutes, then the furball...er, A2A guys are still gonna fret.
KONG

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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2002, 03:56:36 PM »
Yep.  That's why I started with the assumptions I did.  I should note the obvious, that this is already possible now.  So they can complain about it, but it would be no worse under this new strat system than it is now (and should be better if the laser norden truly goes away).
Sabre
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Offline ergRTC

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Strat gameplay discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2002, 05:23:43 PM »
15 minutes is too short for hangers.  If you are trying to up from a base with a fleet of b17s over head, your a fool anyway.  HOping the hangers come up before the next wave is downright silly (You should be upping from a rear base for alt).  I agree with most of your suggestions, but fhs reup should be in line with other strat targets. 20 minutes minimum, this number increasing without train or convoy supply.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2002, 05:43:54 PM »
It's so simple, yet parallels reality so well!
The beauty of this system is that strategic campaigns can still effectively take place in/against one province, and yet the neighboring province would be unaffected.  In many(most?) cases, a country may have one complete or nearly complete, fully functioning strategic province when they finally lose the war.  This means that no one is forced to take off from one of two porked and/or vulched fields to put up a defense!  The fully operational rear bases in the intact province would also give them a chance to launch bombers, organize counter-strike missions, get goons etc.  Perhaps most importantly, the HQ and radar in the intact province would become an unlikely target since the attackers focus would most likely be on/against the falling province and its resources.
A gang-banged country never had it so well!

Great idea Sabre!

eskimo

Offline hitech

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Strat gameplay discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2002, 05:51:22 PM »
Sabre: The depo (zone ownership) concept would put a wrather large value on that target. Not sure if thats a bad thing, it could be a very heavly defended field of some type.

Another way to acomplish the who owns resources could be owner of the most fields in the zone.

Another thought could be to have each resource type asociatied with one field. 2nd thought, this might lead to a problem with who owns the trains.

As far as how the resuply of trucks and trains work, your describing exactly how it works now, just with different down times.

Why is it you wish to eliminate player resuply of factories?

How do cities tie into rebuild of the factories with the train resuplie times? Asking this question did make me think of one posiblity, if we merge the concept of cities and stations all resuplie could be stoped for a period of time by completly destroying a city, great use for lots of buffs.  

Your example of eleminating the MG & cannon would be a very bad idea. This would efectivly close a field, but down grading offensive supplies like being able to take only 100lb instead of 1000lb's or just less of each would work.

HiTech

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2002, 05:59:37 PM »
Hitech,
Cannon WOULD ALWAYS be available at all bases in Sabre's example.  Even if ammo is = 0
At 25% ammo-up you get rockets as well, etc.

Thanks,

eskimo

Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2002, 07:24:34 PM »
I have read the handbook about down times hitech.  Does this still stand in the game? DOes this change depending on map?

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2002, 11:43:24 PM »
HiTech and all, .  I appreciate you're taking time out to respond.

Quote
Sabre: The depo (zone ownership) concept would put a wrather large value on that target. Not sure if thats a bad thing, it could be a very heavly defended field of some type.


Agreed, they are a hi-valued target and deserve heavier defenses (and a vehicle hanger, IMO).  Of course, you can always use player resupply of fields you capture in enemy provinces, if you can't muster the forces to capture the depots.

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Another way to acomplish the who owns resources could be owner of the most fields in the zone.


I thought of this as well, but took my approach because it seemed like less code to write...of course, I'm an electrical engineer and not a software engineer.

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Another thought could be to have each resource type asociatied with one field. 2nd thought, this might lead to a problem with who owns the trains.


An interesting thought.  It might overly complicate things for players, though.   I'd be very interested in hearing a little more on what you mean here.

Quote
As far as how the resuply of trucks and trains work, your describing exactly how it works now, just with different down times.


I think the main difference (correct me if I'm wrong) is that rebuild of damaged field objects by convoy would only be to the level of the provincial strat target.  Meaning that if your refinery is at 75%, then arrival of a convoy would only restore the field fuel to 75%.  As it stands right now, damage to a strat target affects the automatic rebuild time, but not the level the field object is rebuilt to.  Is that not so?  As for trains, yes; I knew that each train shortens the down time.  The main point of this section was a) to eliminate player resupply of strat targets, and b) to stress to the wary A2A purists that the strat targets would not be down indefinitely, even with constant train-busting by the enemy.  At the same time, the elimination of player resupply would insure that a concerted attack on the strat target would last for some minimum length of time.  Exactly how long those times should be  is a matter of experimentation.  My numbers were simply there to help illustrate the concept.

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Why is it you wish to eliminate player resuply of factories?


First, for the reason stated above.  If you manage to get enough guys together to completely wipe out a strat target, it should have some effect you can count on.  My observation is that strategic attacks are virtually gone from the game right now because it's too easy for the defense to rebuild it.  It is certainly the reason the Buccaneers don't do them any more (and we were known for them before 1.08).  Upping the number of goons it takes to rebuild a city helped some, but I think it would be better to simply do away with it.  The strat targets should be worth defending, and they won't be until their worth attacking.

The second reason is, admittedly, because I think about this part of AH from both a historical and military science point of view.  Cities and factories support the front lines, not the other way around.  If the logistics system in AH is supposed to represent the delivery of supplies (using rebuild of damaged objects to represent this), it doesn't follow logic that forward bases could possibly resupply the infrastructure that supports them.  At least not without stripping the front lines of material and manpower.

Quote
How do cities tie into rebuild of the factories with the train resuplie times? Asking this question did make me think of one posiblity, if we merge the concept of cities and stations all resuplie could be stoped for a period of time by completly destroying a city, great use for lots of buffs.


It would be a ripple effect, if you will.  The maximum rebuild time for factories/refineries/etc would be dynamically set, based on the level of damage to the city at the time the factory damage occured.  The arrival of a train would take a set amount of time off the down time, regardless of the damage to the city, but it would take more trains if your city was heavily damaged.  I really like the idea of merging the cities and stations too, as an adjunct to the dynamically set max down time.  Let's face it, railyards are always located in cities, both to receive raw materials from without, and to ship finished goods out to where they're needed.  I would actually like to see them integrated into the city in such a way that flattening either the city or the railyards (with their rolling stock and workshops and roundhouses) would prevent trains from spawning.  That way, attacking just the railyard would prevent trains from spawning, but not affect the maximum rebuild times of factories.  The cities should be large and harder to completely knock down than the railyards, too.

Quote
Your example of eleminating the MG & cannon would be a very bad idea. This would efectivly close a field, but down grading offensive supplies like being able to take only 100lb instead of 1000lb's or just less of each would work.


This was probably not as clear as it was supposed to be, but Eskimo is correct in what I meant.  Fields would always have MG and cannon for aircraft and tanks, regardless of damage to the ammo bunkers.  The idea was to limit a base as an offensive launch point through attack on the ammo bunkers, without preventing the defenders from upping there.
Again, thanks for the discourse, HiTech.  Knowing that you guys pay attention to the community is what really separates Aces High from other sims I've played.  I realize the strat system is by no means finished.  I also know how hard it is to balance one group's' wish-lists without alienating everyone else.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2002, 11:45:47 PM by Sabre »
Sabre
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Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2002, 01:20:56 PM »
sounds good sabre.  couple of things.

1. AW used to model field damage and it worked well.  As ammo and fuel was hit at a base, the ammo load and fuel would be decreased on the plane (we have this for fuel, we should have this for ammo too).  

2. Somehow the field damage needs to be more apparent to the players.  I rarely trust what the 'map' tells me, sometime I have been over a base seen that it is wasted, looked at the map and it was at 100 percent.  Along these lines, damage to resources nearby should be apparent and understandable.  If a depot is hurting there should be visible signs of this. 'smoke on the horizon?"

Offline ICKID

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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2002, 04:54:52 PM »
I Like the idea of strat play and hope it returns.  I am a little confussed by the concern showen for the A2A population.  My understanding was that the Dueling Arena was developed just for their enjoyment and from the heavy usage that the Dueling Arena gets it's easy to see why it was so necessary to development it in the first place.  Please bring back interesting game play.

Offline Preon1

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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2002, 12:29:08 AM »
I'm just checking in on this one.

Personally I love the idea of segmenting the map into different capturable zones (I started the thread "Proxy Wars: A Strategic Compromise for the MA" in the general discussion forum)

I hope something like this goes through.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2002, 11:29:58 AM »
in the hopes that HiTech will get a chance to respond again.:)

Sabre
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Offline WarChild

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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2002, 06:16:32 PM »
PUNT