Author Topic: Finally took the P-38 to a brawl (Read 362 times)

Widewing · « **on:** February 25, 2002, 10:35:52 AM »

Up until yesterday, I hadn't bothered to take up a P-38 for anything other than Jabo work. Last evening, I took up one to pound enemy GVs threatening my airfield. After dropping my bombs, launching rockets and strafing, I decided to have a look at a furball over the nearest Knit airfield.

Arriving at 15k, I saw that the fight was down below 5k. Well, I still had more than half of my ammo remaining, so what the hell, I dove in.

I ripped through the horde at near 500 mph, blasting a 109, before zooming vertical into a hammerhead. Down I came again, and again and again. Finally, 2 kills and 3 assists later, I headed for home low on fuel and ammo. However, a mob of irate Knits tried to follow, but never gained any ground, with me having the initial altitude advantage, I simply unloaded and waved goodbye.

Since I much prefer turnfighting, and generally stick to non-uber aircraft (202, 205, Hurricane, Ki-61 and the like), I rarely get to play the BnZ role. However, this was such a positive experience, I believe I'll try the P-38 again. Besides, it is a remarkably stable gun platform.

I'm assuming that the tactics I used were the preferred method of successfully operating in a low-level environment. Any comments or suggestions from the P-38 Experten?

My regards,

Widewing

Karaya · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2002, 12:53:34 PM »

i see many posts talking about the P38 as a turn and burn fighter, its not and never was designed to do such.

the p38 is a great b&z fighter. Bong flew the P38 strictly as a B&Z fighter and that is why he had so much success with it.

if one expects to turn fight with a zero or spit- tis best to leave the p38 at home and spare search and rescue a trip.

ps...widewing, you live on long island? noticed the cradle of aviation link.

Widewing · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2002, 01:53:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karaya One
i see many posts talking about the P38 as a turn and burn fighter, its not and never was designed to do such.

the p38 is a great b&z fighter. Bong flew the P38 strictly as a B&Z fighter and that is why he had so much success with it.

if one expects to turn fight with a zero or spit- tis best to leave the p38 at home and spare search and rescue a trip.

ps...widewing, you live on long island? noticed the cradle of aviation link.

I can envision circumstances where stallfighting with the P-38 is viable. However, I view this as a defensive posture and not one I would pursue if other options were on the table. It should never be an option against Zekes, Spits and Hurricanes. However, faced with Hogs, Jugs, 190s or 109s, a P-38 caught at low E can give them a real difficult time. I suppose the real issue revolves around how its energy state was allowed to deteriorate so much in the first place.

I got clobbered in a Mustang the other day. Sancho and I had teamed up, I was loaded with rockets. The plan was for me to make my run while Sancho provided cover. As I began my descent, Sancho was bounced by a mixed force or 190s and Mustangs. Foolishly, I hauled up and around to help him. Added to this was the weight and drag of the HVARs. I had to get rid of those, and while I did so, a P-51 shot off one of my elevators. So, now I can't turn, and I'm at just 250 mph. It didn't take long before I had to bail. Bad energy management. I should have continued my rocket run. Live and learn......

My regards,

Widewing

Tac · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2002, 02:22:33 PM »

Out-Turn with what can out-run you, out-run with what can out-turn you.

As an E-fighter the 38 only wins vs the Japanese plane set.

As a turnfighter it wins against all LW planes, especially if you stallfight them. Against other US rides, it can only turn with the late model P-47, and has a rather annoying time turning with the P-51's and earlier P-47's (38 beats them when slow and with flaps, but them jugs and ponys can nose down and diiiive away before you can retract flaps and dive after them!). Brit rides : Turn against tiffies and run against spitV's and hurricanes. Against the SpitIX your only bet is to be higher or have an initial higher speed.. and GET away from the damn thing. If cought in a fight with a spitIX, best bet is to try and stallfight the spit ON THE DECK until the spit augers OR gives you a chance to run away from it. Aside from that, exploit the spitfire's lack-of-skill-pilot magnet ability and try to make the spit make an error. You WILL know in the first 10 seconds if the pilot is a newbie or someone that knows the spit.

I fly the 38 defensively. I prefer to get bounced when IN a 38, as it gives the 38 a much better chance to weave the bouncer to his doom. On the other hand, using the 38 TO bounce is not a good idea in AH. Thanks to the lack of dive flaps, you will rarely be able to follow a con during the bounce, any moron can see you coming and nose down, there isnt even a need to evade or split-s. The bouncing 38 WILL compress on most bounces. And lets face it, when even a zeke can dive to 450mph and retain marginal control while your plane completely locks up, there's a problem there.

eddiek · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2002, 04:10:01 PM »

Not an experten in any ride, not by any means, but the last few tours I have gradually moved away from my beloved Jug and flown the P38 and F6F more and more.
In either, I feel pretty confident no matter what I am facing.
I have noticed that with one or two notches of flaps (adjusted frequently through out a fight, in or out) the P38 can do some wild stuff.
I've scissored Spits and won, done the same against F6F's, only one I've tried it against just to see how it turned out without expecting to win was the Zeke.
Even Nikis can be played with anymore, at least in my experience. A hint of vertical movement as you are maneuvering, nothing drastic, just subtle moves and you can gain the edge and win the fight. SUPERFLY needs to get to work and put a placard on the Niki instrument panel: "ANTI-GRAV DRIVE DISABLED!", with another placard below that "GYROSCOPIC STABLIZERS ON" so they will know they still ain't go no torque to worry about when they get slow.

Manedew · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2002, 04:36:06 PM »

Near compression the power airleions work very well... they roll the 38 damn fast ... but careful it's a razor line in ah (BS IMO) Between awesome rollrate and full compression loss of control. Bounceing can work but you must go all out... i.e. no BnZ, you'll never hit an aware target unless you cut thottle enf. to avoid compression effects.
BTW don't turn with a good tiffie he'll out turn a 38 easy... but as luck would have it there not many good tiffie pilots

One of the best things the 38 has going is it'll zoom climb like a mad beast looking for Tammaco.

Tac · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2002, 05:53:28 PM »

The zoom climb is moot unless the other guy's plane is really screwed in its climb rate or has no E to speak of.. like hurricanes and lancasters. Any other plane can and will easily follow you well inside the gun range and spray you. Icons will allow him to do that.

OTH, its roll rate when in near-compression speeds does allow it to escape from the spit, but ONLY, and ONLY if you got about 15k below your plane, 'cause the spitIX will be able to use its magic trim to roll and follow your 38 on the turn and THEN catch you when your plane slows down to 350'ish in level flight while his stays around 420.

BigCrate · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2002, 06:27:10 PM »

Hmmm I thought zekes couldn't out dive 38s.. Whats the deal there??

I really shouldn't be posting anything about flying the 38.. But flying the 38 is like flying a double edged sword. Since
you don't have control over both engines. You can't do cool rolls or can't swap ends real quik. (cut power on one engine use rudder in the direction of turn the 38 will turn like like a spinning top. Making a 180 degree turn very fast.) So you have to fly it like you would a single engined fighter. But the 38 has good stall performance (tho i still think its missed modeled) So you can do very tight loops at 150mph or so with full flaps. 38 has traits of the real aircraft but the same time it has traits of the single engined fighters. This is a twin engined fighter and should be flown as one if possible. I don't know I could be just state=ing my thoughts on things.

Cw
+=Twin Engined Devils=

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

Tac · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2002, 09:13:49 PM »

Zeke cant follow you on dive.. if its a prolonged dive. But it sure as hell can get to 420'ish and still wiggle its nose to shoot at you while you are at 450 and compressed. And thanks to icons, they can shoot with a certain degree of accuracy (since you are compressed!). And if you try to stay away from compression by rolling, you'll have to get off the steep dive and into a slight dive.. making the zeke's job easier as you pull up and he follows, cutting into your "pull up circle" and getting inside gun range with ease (since the 38 BLEEDS like 100mph just pulling the damn nose up). The same with any other plane.

Zoom climb in AH is also useless in the 38. Most dweebrides have monster engines and NO TORQUE. Just tonight I had a n1k, LOWER than me (about 2k lower), I was doing 430mph shaking like hell at 15k , n1k was on my 6 at d2.8 away and losing ground at d0.1 every 3 seconds (n1k? slow? my ASS). pulled nose up very gently with a bit of trim tabs.. until I was 20 degrees.. speed went down to 400.. saw n1k pull hard up after me.. and I pulled softly till 90 degrees up with FULL wep and trimmed elev so nose stayed up without me giving any input.. looked back.. and sure enough, the n1k came in d2.5... d2.2... my speed at 340 mph.. n1k at d1.7... 1.4... my speed is 250'ish.. look back.. n1k at d1.1.. my speed now 200... look back n1k at d800... d700.. im beggining to stall, speed at 120sh.. n1k at d600 and firing .. deploy flaps while easing nose down with a little bit of rudder so I would gently level and turn a bit ready to pounce on the n1k that by all rights SHOULD be stalling like HELL , my speed below 100mph now, look to my back and sideways (since I had almost leveld with horizon and was turning a bit), look at n1k.. he's STILL coming with nose fully up at d500 firing like hell... since I was turning and sideways he misses the spray, by now my flaps are FULLY deployed, plane HANGING with nose ABOVE horizon at 90 mph (I never dropped any alt).. and ZOOOM n1k passes PAST my tail as he pulls his nose towards me HARD while ruddering, his nose pointing straight at me and fires. BOOM goes 38.

A VERY, very B.S. behavior for a plane with ONE 2000HP engine with ALLEGED automatic flaps that is SUPPOSED to have a crummy climb rate. The torque of that engine on its own shouldve spun that thing out of the sky when his speed was below 150mph. You can even take a n1k in the TA with full fuel and point its nose up with FULL control and a very gentle stall down to EDIT: Did in in TA, n1k only stalls out at 55 mph

on that thing. WTF is up with this?

In short, HO any n1k you see. And even then you'll lose, so be sure to RAM it as well.

BigCrate · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2002, 09:37:58 PM »

The only time I notice torque in any plane is on take off. In real life
a single engined fighter at stall speeds you would have to apply right rudder to keep it stable. Now I don't see this in the AH flight model.. Why is that?? If this was modeled the dweeb planes the stall performance would go down hill in a hurry compared to the 38 stall performance. Why is there no torque modeled in single engined fighter?? Hmm this would not be good for the f4us and 51s eh??

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

akak · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2002, 09:45:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BigCrate
Hmmm I thought zekes couldn't out dive 38s.. Whats the deal there?? I really shouldn't be posting anything about flying the 38.. But flying the 38 is like flying a double edged sword. Since
you don't have control over both engines. You can't do cool rolls or can't swap ends real quik. (cut power on one engine use rudder in the direction of turn the 38 will turn like like a spinning top. Making a 180 degree turn very fast.) So you have to fly it like you would a single engined fighter.

Cw
+=Twin Engined Devils=

Snap roll reversals can be done without needing a 2nd throttle and if done correctly, it will appear to make you flip instantaneously.

Ack-Ack
479th Fighter Group - Riddle's Raiders

BigCrate · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2002, 10:37:36 PM »

Akak are you talking about stalling until you flick roll over?? I have pulled so hard in a 38 and I done a nice uncontrolled snap roll. Using a dual throttle just makes doing snap rolls in a 38 more controllable. That is what I was trying to state. Akak if this isn't what you were talking please tell me how you do it.

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

TheManx · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2002, 11:58:10 PM »

I thought torque was modelled. That's why you need to trim your aircraft.

JV44 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2002, 03:31:13 AM »

mmmm....

Can it be that auto combat trim automatic apply the ruder to work against the torque in fly????

Andreas

Naudet · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2002, 04:08:54 AM »

I can only speak for the 109er and 190, but those birds have real torque probs, when you get below 150mph. I can only fly a clean hammerhead cause of my experience and i yet manged only one clean wingover with my D9 and that was offline.

If you use Combattrim, this gets also worse in those planes cause CT only really works between 180-430mph. Outside this "speedwindow" CT makes it even harder to control the 190/109er.

But since i jumped to manual trim in the 190, i can do hammerheads much better and got a better slow speed handling. This is because i counter the torque effects with my controls.
But in the 190 this can be done with ailerons most of the time, cause FW is a very stable plane (in AH and in RL) in the longitutial axis (the yaw axis, which is controled by rudder).
In the 109er its different, there i need more rudder input and less aileron input to counter torque.